Upton Warren (11 Viewers)

[Phil Andrews]

Hi John, at the risk of going too far down memory lane I can remember back in the early eighties carrying out a similar expedition with John Higginson to Rushall pool near Walsall collecting some fraggy in black bags and transporting it to Belvide to create the first reed beds by the main hide, it makes great habitat but only in the right places as we've now found out, only thing to add to yesterday's tally was a single Swallow through the Flashes pm. Steve T.

Welcome to the forum Mr Taylor :t:

 

[PeterE]

So espoused the well-know conservationist and corporate vulture Gordon Gekho in Wall(creeper) Street. What Mr Zeta-Douglas-Jones forgot to add in the excitement of another billion dollar deal was the caveat "in the right circumstances".

I wouldn't want anyone following this thread to think we had a downer on phragmites at Upton Warren. The reed-beds form a vital element of the reserve's bio-diversity, contributing healthy breeding populations of Reed Warbler, Sedge Warbler and Reed Bunting, wintering Bitterns, passage Marsh Harrier and Spotted Crake and one of the best places in the country to actually see Water Rail. Much of the management work of the Tuesday work parties at the Moors Pool focuses on the preservation and improvement of the reed beds - the sectional cutting to promote fresh vibrant growth, the digging of new channels to keep the beds wet, the removal of encroaching willow and alder to prevent the beds drying out, the resculpting of the North Moors etc.

However the Flashes is a different proposition. The historic reedbeds at the Hen Pool also hold good numbers of breeding water and I would look to improve this area this autumn by adopting a similar rotational cutting management scheme as the Moors Pool. The first, second and Flashes though present a near unique habitat of inland brine pool and the salinity of the water has promoted the growth of a number of salt tolerant / salt loving plants and historically inhibited the growth of substantial vegetation on its perimeter, giving rise to both a wide muddy margin suitable for passage and breeding waders and good lines of sight to prevent raptors or mammalian predators popping up close to feeding, nesting birds, plus areas of short grass close to the water's edge suitable for breeding Redshank and Lapwing.

In recent years the reed-beds have spread and merged at the Flashes at an incredible rate, putting pressure on both breeding and feeding birds. The reduction in available shoreline has meant that the waders now congregate in the central areas, bring passage and breeding birds into conflict; gone are the days that one may see ten plus Green Sandpiper strung out along the far shore during their summer movement. Those family parties (especially Avocet) who are forced to the reed-fringed shores through weight of numbers suffer a much higher mortality rate than those broods raised in the prime central areas.

There are several potential ways to manage the situation to preserve this habitat:

(1) Do Nothing - a lack of intervention will see the continued spread of the reedbeds to finally encircle the first and second Flash. This will deter waders from feeding in the rear channel, focussing all the attention on the area directly in front of the hide. It is likely that we would be left with an aggressive colony of breeding Avocet and little else. Our survey of the existing reedbeds show that they hold little in the way of breeding warbler (save the Hen Pool) so there isn't even a silver lining there.

(2) Grazing - the use of Dexter cattle over the last 12 months has certainly improved the quality of the grasslands at the Flashes, stimulating the growth of juncas and creating a number of wet areas ideal for breeding Snipe, Redshank and Yellow Wagtail. However their impact on the phragmites (either existing reeds for fresh growth following cutting) seems negligible, possibly due to the abundance of nice tasty grass, whilst they have had a detrimental effect of breeding birds as they wander across the second Flash. What is unknown is whether another grazing animal, such as Konik ponies, would have more of an impact.

(3) Cutting - for the last couple of year both the Flashes's work parties and the Trust's roving volunteers led by John Hodson have been cutting the reeds in an attempt to limit their growth. Even when these cuts have been timed to coincide with the hard and prolonged winter frosts there appears to have no impact (other than reducing the height to see into the third Flash and grassland beyond); indeed my personal observation is that cutting seems to stimulate the phragmites' growth and spread.

(4) Treatment - the targeted treatment of the phragmities with a chemical herbicide such as glyphosate could eliminate the reedbeds with the agent being carried into the rhizome system beyond the reedbeds themselves. This proposal has been previously opposed by Natural England due to the potential adverse impact on the salt loving / salt tolerant flora.

(5) Removal - a solution that has been considered in the past has been the digging out of all affected areas; given the extent of the rhizomes system this would have to extend to removal of land beyond the extent of the current reedbeds. If done extensively and effectively enough it could remove the problem; the downside is that it would be very expensive, require large machinery and high levels of disturbance and would then necessitate the regarding of the shoreline so we are left with shallow shelving areas for waders to feed rather than a deep trench at the water's edge

(6) Covering - this could be achieved through the use of tarpaulin and similar or a chemical foam once the reeds are cut; a comparable approach has been adopted in the management of the crassula at the Broadmeadow. There are a number of disadvantages: it is unsightly, the treatment would also impact on the salt tolerant / loving plants and the covering of a much wider area than just the current extent of the reedbeds given the extensive spread of the rhizomes. Likewise given the amount of energy stored in the rhizomes this solution would need to remain in place for at least a year.

(7) Realign the water level - it has been mooted that the water level should be dropped at the Flashes to counter ongoing subsidence. This would have the short term benefit to creating a revised shoreline free of phragmites. However this would result in a reduced perimeter and within a few years the reeds would march forward to meet the new waterline

Clearly none of the above options are ideal and it is very much "the lesser of seven evils"; time for some serious and difficult thinking. Unfortunately we don't have too much time as the point of the no return is fast approaching (as the non-appearance so far of LRP indicates).

A masterly survey of the options, Phil. In my very inexpert opinion we should lobby for the long-range solutions that are at present hindered by administrative and financial concerns. However, in the meantime we should do what we can to keep the shoreline open and attractive to waders.

Some comments:

(1) Do nothing It just feels wrong to let things slide when there is some action we could take.

(2) Grazing The cattle did improve the grasslands but they probably trampled on some nests. These belonged to the BHGs but might easily have been those of Avocets. The cattle were responsible for wrecking the Shelduck box as well as moving the protective cage over the LRP nest.

Are there any other species of grazing animal that might eat the phragmites? Would we be allowed to tether goats by the reeds? (I said I was very inexpert).

(3) Cutting The roving volunteers have made a good job cutting back the reeds in front of the sewage works and along the shoreline. The Tuesday work party is very used to cutting reeds and with our current numbers we could get in and make a difference in short order without too much disturbance.

Peter

 

[Phil Andrews]

Dave J reports 27 Avocet at the Flashes plus Swallow, Fieldfare and adult GBB Gull over south west with 3 Little Egrets roostin at the Sailing Pool. Also a significant movement of Meadow Pipits northwards

 

[Phil Andrews]

(3) Cutting The roving volunteers have made a good job cutting back the reeds in front of the sewage works and along the shoreline. The Tuesday work party is very used to cutting reeds and with our current numbers we could get in and make a difference in short order without too much disturbance.

Peter

My problem with cutting is that - if you forgive the pun - it doesn't get to the root of the problem. It may take height out of the reeds but it doesn't destroy the rhizomes or restore a muddy shoreline. As posted up thread my personal oberveration is that cutting actually seems to stimulate next season's growth. The only way I could see cutting could be a potentially viable solution was if it was combined with the dropping of the water level so the rise in water level over the winter impacted on stems cut in say November

 

[geoffw1946]

My problem with cutting is that - if you forgive the pun - it doesn't get to the root of the problem. It may take height out of the reeds but it doesn't destroy the rhizomes or restore a muddy shoreline. As posted up thread my personal oberveration is that cutting actually seems to stimulate next season's growth. The only way I could see cutting could be a potentially viable solution was if it was combined with the dropping of the water level so the rise in water level over the winter impacted on stems cut in say November

Recently somebody in the Flashes hide noted that there seemed more fish at the Flashes than there used to be and Cormorant and Little Egret are finding plenty of fish including what looked like a Goldfish, does anyone know if the salinity has changed? If so I'm wondering if putting salt on the Phragmites after cutting it would kill it off, putting salt on grass kills it, I've tried it.
Also see this,
http://www.deq.virginia.gov/portals/0/deq/coastalzonemanagement/task10-03-07.pdf

 

[Phil Andrews]

Recently somebody in the Flashes hide noted that there seemed more fish at the Flashes than there used to be and Cormorant and Little Egret are finding plenty of fish including what looked like a Goldfish, does anyone know if the salinity has changed? If so I'm wondering if putting salt on the Phragmites after cutting it would kill it off, putting salt on grass kills it, I've tried it.
Also see this,
http://www.deq.virginia.gov/portals/0/deq/coastalzonemanagement/task10-03-07.pdf

This idea has also been kicked around the volunteers; I would have thought that anything that potentially could impact on the level of salinity would be a no-go to the Trust and Natural England

 

[geoffw1946]

This idea has also been kicked around the volunteers; I would have thought that anything that potentially could impact on the level of salinity would be a no-go to the Trust and Natural England

You'll need to put up a big umbrella then.8-P

 

[upstarts1979]

Hi John, at the risk of going too far down memory lane I can remember back in the early eighties carrying out a similar expedition with John Higginson to Rushall pool near Walsall collecting some fraggy in black bags and transporting it to Belvide to create the first reed beds by the main hide, it makes great habitat but only in the right places as we've now found out, only thing to add to yesterday's tally was a single Swallow through the Flashes pm. Steve T.
l

Hi Steve........yes we did our bit to help Belvide get a decent reed bed.Maybe in a few years time it might spread to areas where it is not needed. Good to see you on the forum mate.:t:

 

[upstarts1979]

A masterly survey of the options, Phil. In my very inexpert opinion we should lobby for the long-range solutions that are at present hindered by administrative and financial concerns. However, in the meantime we should do what we can to keep the shoreline open and attractive to waders.

Some comments:

(1) Do nothing It just feels wrong to let things slide when there is some action we could take.

(2) Grazing The cattle did improve the grasslands but they probably trampled on some nests. These belonged to the BHGs but might easily have been those of Avocets. The cattle were responsible for wrecking the Shelduck box as well as moving the protective cage over the LRP nest.

Are there any other species of grazing animal that might eat the phragmites? Would we be allowed to tether goats by the reeds? (I said I was very inexpert).

(3) Cutting The roving volunteers have made a good job cutting back the reeds in front of the sewage works and along the shoreline. The Tuesday work party is very used to cutting reeds and with our current numbers we could get in and make a difference in short order without too much disturbance.

Peter

Konik ponies eat the rhizomes and are used on marshes by RSPB:t:

 

[Phil Andrews]

Dave J reports 27 Avocet at the Flashes plus Swallow, Fieldfare and adult GBB Gull over south west with 3 Little Egrets roostin at the Sailing Pool. Also a significant movement of Meadow Pipits northwards

Dave J furthered reported for this morning:

Mediterranean Gull (2s), 2 Little Egrets and 2 Coal Tits at the Moors Pool. Also 5 male Cetti's Warbler, 305 Meadow Pipit (50 grounded, 255 ➡ N), Brimstone and Peacock butterflies.

 

[Woodchat]

Recently somebody in the Flashes hide noted that there seemed more fish at the Flashes than there used to be and Cormorant and Little Egret are finding plenty of fish including what looked like a Goldfish, does anyone know if the salinity has changed? If so I'm wondering if putting salt on the Phragmites after cutting it would kill it off, putting salt on grass kills it, I've tried it.
Also see this,
http://www.deq.virginia.gov/portals/0/deq/coastalzonemanagement/task10-03-07.pdf

The salinity has always varied with dilution - there are several posts dedicated to this subject from a few years back.

I suspect that the 'goldfish' are in fact sticklebacks which can turn bright red during breeding times and are tolerant of brackish conditions.:t:

 

[Birder Gladys]

Quite a morning if memory serves me right Mary and I was in the Moors east hide a phone call came through to one of the guy in there and the place emptied so quick, never seen birders run so fast,Mary still gives Gary grief on missing that one.
Prediction for this weekend Osprey

guess what they had at grimley today keep them peeled

 

[Phil Andrews]

HOORAY - Little Ringed Plover are back!

Two at the Flashes this morning as per Gert; four days later than the previous latest ever return date :eek!:

 

[Phil Andrews]

More hot news from Gert - Merlin north through the Moors Pool at 10:15. No coincidence with a big movement of Meadow Pipits within the last 24 hours.

Med Gull also still present at the Moors Pool

 

[Phil Andrews]

New for the year (#101) - Little Ringed Plover
New for the year (#102) - Merlin

 

[Muntjac]

Fish at the Flashes

The salinity has always varied with dilution - there are several posts dedicated to this subject from a few years back.

I suspect that the 'goldfish' are in fact sticklebacks which can turn bright red during breeding times and are tolerant of brackish conditions.:t:

Thought I'd add some photos of the Little Egret from Friday when it performed in front of the hide. It took several fish from the lagoon to the left of the hide in a short space of time including the two captured here by Mrs M. I'll leave it to the experts to decide what the 'grainy' orange/red fish is.

 

[Gert Corfield]

More hot news from Gert - Merlin north through the Moors Pool at 10:15. No coincidence with a big movement of Meadow Pipits within the last 24 hours.

Med Gull also still present at the Moors Pool

Also GBBG on the Moors and 2 Swallow through on Sailing pool

 

[upstarts1979]

Thought I'd add some photos of the Little Egret from Friday when it performed in front of the hide. It took several fish from the lagoon to the left of the hide in a short space of time including the two captured here by Mrs M. I'll leave it to the experts to decide what the 'grainy' orange/red fish is.

Nice one Ian...now proof that something has changed at the Flashes...this might be a relevant factor in planning the future management of the Flashes. There is also a little grebe on the 1st Flash...Historically little grebe used to breed on the 3rd Flash.B John nice pics as well:t:

 

[upstarts1979]

Steve Nuttall at Belvide has had 1381 plus a merlin, this morning. Could well be some of our birds moving north. there must be a massive movement of meadow pipits at the moment. The pleasures of VIS MIGGING:t:

 

[wheatearlp]

Steve Nuttall at Belvide has had 1381 plus a merlin, this morning. Could well be some of our birds moving north. there must be a massive movement of meadow pipits at the moment. The pleasures of VIS MIGGING:t:

Can't say I've had 1000s of Mipits today but small numbers (20-plus) still moving north late morning. Chiffchaffs plentiful (8 or so), two or three singing Blackcaps but still no Willow Warblers. At least 7 Lapwings on site. Butterflies: Small Tortoiseshell, Peacock and Comma plus Brimstone per Paul Croft.