On the occasion of the HDX, thinking about it … (1 Viewer)

[jan van daalen]

They probably won't do that.

The high significance that ‘Made in Germany’ has for romantic and unsuspecting customers only leads to these special arrangements where you contribute just enough in-house to the production value that you can write ‘MiG’ on your product without risk. The naive buyer then sees in his mind's eye how Teutonic steel and Wetzlar crystal are miraculously combined by expert Germanic craftsmen.

Why damage this sales-promoting myth by blurting out the mundane truth? Presumably this CEO didn't expect you to peddle his explanation on the Internet either.

We are dealers of the brands but loyal to our customers.
I refuse to tell them it is A while I know it is B.

 

[roweraay]

The high significance that ‘Made in Germany’ has for romantic and unsuspecting customers only leads to these special arrangements where you contribute just enough in-house to the production value that you can write ‘MiG’ on your product without risk. The naive buyer then sees in his mind's eye how Teutonic steel and Wetzlar crystal are miraculously combined by expert Germanic craftsmen.

In this age of robotics, IIoT and high levels of automation in manufacturing, people still imagine mythical craftsmen crafting their products by hand. A silly fantasy at best ! A “craftsman” barely touches many of these components, and even the QC is done via sophisticated optical instruments, and the tolerances are established based on their product hierarchy, where the high priced products have to meet a higher tolerance threshold, while the lower priced products can pass a less high threshold.

Every bit of these steps can be replicated, EXACTLY as-is, in say Japan or China or Portugal or wherever, where the highly trained Portuguese/Japanese/Chinese worker then presses the button that triggers off a production run at a work center (using the EXACT same machine that the German factory uses), rather than a German or Austrian worker pressing the button.

The machines and the equipment used in production, are certainly EXACTLY the same, whether it is in Germany or whether in Japan, and almost certainly were produced by the exact same Siemens or some such German manufacturer. The in-process QC/QA are also exactly the same, and done using the exact same equipment, made at the exact same German or Austrian factory.

Time to put such mythical nonsense to bed, and start enjoying these top quality products.

 

[Maljunulo]

In this age of robotics, IIoT and high levels of automation in manufacturing, people still imagine mythical craftsmen crafting their products by hand. A silly fantasy at best ! A “craftsman” barely touches many of these components, and even the QC is done via sophisticated optical instruments, and the tolerances are established based on their product hierarchy, where the high priced products have to meet a higher tolerance threshold, while the lower priced products can pass a less high threshold.

Every bit of these steps can be replicated, EXACTLY as-is, in say Japan or China or Portugal or wherever, where the highly trained Portuguese/Japanese/Chinese worker then presses the button that triggers off a production run at a work center (using the EXACT same machine that the German factory uses), rather than a German or Austrian worker pressing the button.

The machines and the equipment used in production, are certainly EXACTLY the same, whether it is in Germany or whether in Japan, and almost certainly were produced by the exact same Siemens or some such German manufacturer. The in-process QC/QA are also exactly the same, and done using the exact same equipment, made at the exact same German or Austrian factory.

Time to put such mythical nonsense to bed, and start enjoying these top quality products.

Interesting.

 

[Patudo]

people still imagine mythical craftsmen crafting their products by hand. A silly fantasy at best !

Well, as we are seeing, folks will believe what they want to believe...

And the image set out by forent is a potent one. At least for many of the target demographic purchasing binoculars (I think?).

 

[crinklystarfish]

The corollary that contemporary German engineering equals excellence is little more than a specious mindset held by the naive.

Notwithstanding, I doff my cap to the sublime influence of the Hanseatic League.

It's probably wise to rely upon empirical judgement rather than narratives spun by marketing departments and regurgitated courtesy of lazy journalism. And the terminally naive.

 

[jan van daalen]

In this age of robotics, IIoT and high levels of automation in manufacturing, people still imagine mythical craftsmen crafting their products by hand. A silly fantasy at best ! A “craftsman” barely touches many of these components, and even the QC is done via sophisticated optical instruments, and the tolerances are established based on their product hierarchy, where the high priced products have to meet a higher tolerance threshold, while the lower priced products can pass a less high threshold.

Every bit of these steps can be replicated, EXACTLY as-is, in say Japan or China or Portugal or wherever, where the highly trained Portuguese/Japanese/Chinese worker then presses the button that triggers off a production run at a work center (using the EXACT same machine that the German factory uses), rather than a German or Austrian worker pressing the button.

The machines and the equipment used in production, are certainly EXACTLY the same, whether it is in Germany or whether in Japan, and almost certainly were produced by the exact same Siemens or some such German manufacturer. The in-process QC/QA are also exactly the same, and done using the exact same equipment, made at the exact same German or Austrian factory.

Time to put such mythical nonsense to bed, and start enjoying these top quality products.

AFAIK (and been told) not exactly.
Take for instance OptoTech. In collaboration with their partners they develope the grinding machine for that partner with the contract that only after 5 years the knowledge (read: machine) will be available for other mfrs. So, the latest and the greatest is not simustaniously available for others.

 

[Maljunulo]

Myths die hard.

 

[jgraider]

Nice try denseco, but Jap car makers run circles around German makers when it comes to reliability. That's a pretty poor swing and miss.

 

[seawatcher]

View attachment 1611981

Nice attempt to hijack a thread about Zeiss binoculars. Rather convenient to emphasise the point that you have been making (on several occasions) about German products being superior to Chinese by managing to find results of a survey showing Germany on top and China at the bottom. No, don't try and post further examples of similar opinion polls / user surveys, one (fake?) survey is enough.

If this is an attempt to show that Chinese products are inferior, then I would point out that even if Zeiss binoculars are manufactured or assembled in another country than in Germany, then they are still subject to the stringent QC we expect when purchasing a Zeiss instrument, and what you buy is a quality product worthy of the Zeiss label. For potential buyers of Zeiss or any other make / model - Chinese products are not necesarily bad. In fact, one of my "go to" binocs is a Chinese model.

Any chance of getting this thread back on track? Please?
SW

 

[seawatcher]

It is not a fake survey, but rather how people rank different countries on their perception of quality. That perception of quality comes from experience with products from those different countries. I didn't experience the same level of stringent QC from my Zeiss HDX 8x32 binoculars that were made in Japan than I did with my Zeiss HD 8x32 that were made in Germany because I had quality issues with the Japanese made HDX that I never had with the German made HD. It could be I just got a bad sample, but I have never had any bad samples from German made HD's and there was another member that reported cheap feeling armor and a rough focuser on his HDX. I also have had many Chinese made binoculars, and I am sorry to say not one has approached the quality of the German, Austrian or even Japanese binoculars I have owned. Chinese binoculars like you say aren't necessarily bad, but they are not up to quality levels of the binoculars made in the EU or Japan IMO at this point in time.

The survey post seems to have mysteriously vanished from this thread? Has it been deleted - a bit difficult to maintain a coherent discussion when bits get chopped out
This is beside the point, but I have driven a Japanese car for further and longer than my neighbour's German car and mine just goes and goes, whereas his German car keeps breaking down. That doen't mean to say that Honda is better than BMW, it is just a subjective opinion based upon ones experience.

I appreciate that you may have had issues with an HDX you own / have tried. But that is not the same as saying that all Japanese or Chinese binoculars are inferior. I was trying to make the point that the Japanese-made HDX is subject to the same QC as the German-made HD. And if there are any issues / faults, then I have never had any problems getting things fixed. In fact, my Zeiss Conquests had to be sent in for service 3 times during the 3 years I owned them, my Swarovski CLs once (and due to be sent in again soon due to a recurring fault) whereas my current Chinese binoculars and my two Nikons have yet to have any issues. "Made In _______" is no guarantee of quality.
SW

 

[tenex]

Quoting random posts on other forums by people who can't even spell "Noctivid" and claim that Leica is still manufacturing in Wetzlar is a waste of time. No, it's worse than that, done by someone who knows perfectly well they now say "Made in Portugal" and must not even be thinking about what he copies and posts or why.

Asking customer reps whether Zeiss bins are made in Germany and having them reply "yes they are made in Germany" (as of course they must) is again a complete waste of time (theirs too) as it ignores the question of what "made in Germany" means under EU law.

Complaining about the quality of Japanese manufacturing per se is ridiculous. It must be whatever Zeiss wants it to be at the price point.

All this has been gone through so many times before, there's no need to repeat ad infinitum, unless one simply enjoys sidetracking one thread after another.

 

[John A Roberts]

From: Same Old, Same Old. Just Older. And Samer Ceramic Mug


John


p.s. Well that worked a treat - it took less than 7 minutes for Dennis to delete his post responding to tenex!

 

[[email protected]]

Quoting random posts on other forums by people who can't even spell "Noctivid" and claim that Leica is still manufacturing in Wetzlar is a waste of time. No, it's worse than that, done by someone who knows perfectly well they now say "Made in Portugal" and must not even be thinking about what he copies and posts or why.

Asking customer reps whether Zeiss bins are made in Germany and having them reply "yes they are made in Germany" (as of course they must) is again a complete waste of time (theirs too) as it ignores the question of what "made in Germany" means under EU law.

Complaining about the quality of Japanese manufacturing per se is ridiculous. It must be whatever Zeiss wants it to be at the price point.

All this has been gone through so many times before, there's no need to repeat ad infinitum, unless one simply enjoys sidetracking one thread after another.

Spiral Horn had a few facts wrong because of the time frame of his post, but the conversation with Zeiss concerning what percent of the CHD is made in Germany was spot on, and the letter from Zeiss Corporation just confirms the fact more conclusively that the CHD was made in Germany. Complaining about the quality of Japanese manufacturing is very important when it lowers the quality of your product from what it was when it was made in Germany at identical price points. If your point is true, Zeiss must have lowered the quality of the HDX.

 

[tenex]

You're the one sidetracking the thread with your pointless statements, trying to undermine every post instead of contributing to it.

"No, you're the one"... are you six years old?

 

[CharleyBird]

Are we talking about the
DEATH OF THE ALPHA

and specifically #25

Death Of The Alpha?

Now this is interesting..... For some time, i took great delight in walking about with Vanguard Endeavor EDIIs in the company of alpha-owners - not missing anything, and getting some admiring comments when they looked through them. I got quite smug about it - i'd done the research, tried a few...

www.birdforum.net

😘

 

[GrampaTom]

Are we talking about the
DEATH OF THE ALPHA

and specifically

Death Of The Alpha?

Now this is interesting..... For some time, i took great delight in walking about with Vanguard Endeavor EDIIs in the company of alpha-owners - not missing anything, and getting some admiring comments when they looked through them. I got quite smug about it - i'd done the research, tried a few...

www.birdforum.net

😘

Oh my...

 

[jgraider]

That is very true, but the chart is about perceived quality, not actual quality. I still would rather have a BMW than a Toyota.

It doesn't matter what you, or anyone else thinks. What matters is the truth.

 

[GrampaTom]

In this age of robotics, IIoT and high levels of automation in manufacturing, people still imagine mythical craftsmen crafting their products by hand. A silly fantasy at best ! A “craftsman” barely touches many of these components, and even the QC is done via sophisticated optical instruments, and the tolerances are established based on their product hierarchy, where the high priced products have to meet a higher tolerance threshold, while the lower priced products can pass a less high threshold.

Every bit of these steps can be replicated, EXACTLY as-is, in say Japan or China or Portugal or wherever, where the highly trained Portuguese/Japanese/Chinese worker then presses the button that triggers off a production run at a work center (using the EXACT same machine that the German factory uses), rather than a German or Austrian worker pressing the button.

The machines and the equipment used in production, are certainly EXACTLY the same, whether it is in Germany or whether in Japan, and almost certainly were produced by the exact same Siemens or some such German manufacturer. The in-process QC/QA are also exactly the same, and done using the exact same equipment, made at the exact same German or Austrian factory.

Time to put such mythical nonsense to bed, and start enjoying these top quality products.

Much as it pains me to seem to agree with our "friend"... Id like to speak to a couple points.

I once worked in the manufacturing world pre CNC, CAD and then in it as a reasonably senior product planning and quality management exec. Well into retirement, I spent a dozen years as a student machinist and then furniture maker. I would say that the craft of making stuff the modern way, is not less crafty than the older more manual way. It's just different. Old school craft is some part manual, (hands on) and some part brain. Without the latter, the thing is likely not so well crafted. With CAD/CNC the craft is at the beginning, with designing (CAD) and programming (CNC) in the lead. Robotics mostly replace arduous and dangerous tasks, these not being so essential to thinking of something as being well crafted. The folks running these machines are gifted, and well educated, if maybe not in classic ways. Maybe the craftsperson doesn't "touch" so much today, but crafts people are very much involved in making the stuff we love to buy.

Im probably off the back on this, but last I looked the Japanese were making some of the very best of the equipment there is to do these things. Thinking about the investment these machine require and how the technology changes over time, It'd be hard to say the machines in Germany and Japan are exactly the same. That though does not mean they, whatever they might be, cant execute stuff just fine.

None of this works without Total Quality Management (or whatever its called today), based on the work of folks like Edwards Deming, edwards Deming - Google Search or Joe Jurran joe juran - Google Search. To "drop" just a couple names.

 

[tenex]

Much as it pains me to seem to agree with our "friend"...

The apparent point of "agreement" here is (as so often) irrelevant to the argument made; agreement itself is irrelevant. This isn't "argument" at all, just a matter of habitually ignoring what others say and continuing to repeat oneself, which simply fails as communication. What function it is performing instead would make an interesting question.

Denco didn't start this thread, but it seems he's going to finish it. Again.

 

[Stanbo]

Now children, isn't it about time this silliness stopped !!
Stan