Norfolk Shark eats Seal (its in the Sun) (6 Viewers)

[Nick Elliston]

OK - I admit it. It was me. Felt hungry and there was no burger van or F&C shop around.

 

[nigelblake]

OK - I admit it. It was me. Felt hungry and there was no burger van or F&C shop around.

Blimey, you must have needed a whole tube of "Sterident" to clean the dentures after that then!! 3 :king:

 

[EJB]

"Chain-saw attacks seal!".....Doesn't sound nearly as exciting....but it's my bet

 

[Nightranger]

Would a sixgill shark occur in the shallow waters of the North Sea? Only records a quick google finds are off the west coasts of the British Isles?

Graham

Sixgills are certainly present although they prefer to be at depths of 500-1000m. However, there have been records in California of sixgills coming into shallow water so there is no reason why there should not be odd examples in the eastern Atlantic and North Sea.

Ian

 

[Ilya Maclean]

I've seen sliced up seals, particularly pups, quite few times when out birding on the North Norfolk coast and eslewhere. I strongly suspect the story to be rather more sad than that of a Great White Shark being present. Looks very much like it's been sliced by a boat propeller to me.

Edit: serrated bite marks could have been caused by any number of things with teeth after the initial slicing

 

[Nightranger]

The old ruler up against the screen now suggests the bite is just under ten inches across - assuming the seal was 4 feet long - which probably brings it back within reach of other shark species being possibilities, but doesn't rule out GWS. The tooth marks may need analysing now, I think the triangular saw edged teeth are diagnostic, or do other requiem sharks have them?

John

Hi John,

GWS has the serrated triangular teeth that make this kind of bite most familiar but makos and porgies also have serrations even though their teeth tend to be sharper. I am not quite as sure (assuming this is not another fake photographed in California or Australia) the bite shape tells that much because it is possible the bite was not the cause of death. Had the seal been scavenged rather than killed (the flesh does look a little high), it would have been easier to produce a bite with this much cleanness. GWS do not always bite so much as rake with the bottom jaw when they make the initial attack. This is clearly a feeding bite (similar to those seen on dead whales) rather than an attack bite so I suspect the seal was already dead. Under those circumstances, it would be possible for any predatory shark to produce a bite of this kind.

However, most of our big species should not be in shallow water at this time of the year and even the porgies should be offshore. This would tend to leave sixgill (suggested elsewhere) or a Greenland/sleeper shark. The latter is a high possibility because they often come into shallow water and commonly scavenge seals (or the odd reindeer unless it is called Rudolph ).

GWS are coldwater sharks but it is thought that the seal population is not high enough to support a viable population around the UK. Californian GWS are seasonal, involving several individuals at each site and fur seals are much more numerous than Atlantic grey seals and common seals so there may be some logic to this argument. Having said that, there is no reason to think that the GWS does not reach British shores. A sobering thought given they are likely to be wanderers from the Azores where some of the largest sharks have ever been recorded. The Port Ferry/Fairy record (36ft) is now thought to be suspect because the jaws are held in the British Museum and are only consistent with an 18-footer. The largest GWS reliably measured was (deep breath) 29ft, taken off the Azores and 20+footers are regularly seen. Makes you think seriously about swimming in the West Country and being the first to see one. :eek!:

Ian

 

[Barred Wobbler]

But they are also known in the Med, where they have even been responsible for a handful of attacks, but it doesn't seem to put many people off swimming there (including me).

I'm still to be convinced that they frequent British waters, if for nothing more than the complete lack of their presence in fishing nets, despite the huge amount of fishing that has taken place around these islands for centuries. Even rare fish turn up in fishing nets.

 

[Nightranger]

But that are also known in the Med, where they have even been responsible for a handful of attacks, but it doesn't seem to put many people off swimming there (including me).

I'm still to be convinced that they frequent British waters, if for nothing more than the complete lack of their presence in fishing nets, despite the huge amount of fishing that has taken place around these islands for centuries. Even rare fish turn up in fishing nets.

Hi Alan,

I tend to agree, I doubt GWS are as regular as the tabloids want us to believe but I am sure they do arrive as vagrants from time to time. It would be interesting to know the frequency but I am guessing one every decade or less making them a three-star rarity in birding terms. For the record, we get occasional visits from quite a variety of big (carnivorous) sharks.

Porbeagle
Mako
Blue shark
Greenland/sleeper shark (a ****ing huge dogfish)
Sixgill shark
Tope (these would be dangerous if they grew larger)
Thresher shark (possibly two species)

All regular
--------------------------------

Hammerhead shark (great hammerhead and possibly, one or two other species)
Oceanic whitetip (look at the global distribution and don't get shipwrecked)

Very rare but worrying
----------------------------------

Tiger shark is theoretically possible but tends to favour warm water and is not strictly speaking, oceanic.

Ian

 

[Isurus]

The largest GWS reliably measured was (deep breath) 29ft, taken off the Azores and 20+footers are regularly seen. Makes you think seriously about swimming in the West Country and being the first to see one. :eek!:

Ian

Ian
The 29 footer has (to my understanding) been proven to be a questionable record as have most of the 20ft+ Maltese sharks, I can't comment on the "20 footers being regularly seen in the Azores" as I haven't heard much about them but would suggest these may be old records?

Speaking of sharks in the Azores did anyone see the classic episode of John Wilson's go fishing where an unidentified object swallowed his big tuna and swam off with it in the azores?

 

[Nightranger]

From the many documentaries around it is not unusual for a GWS to take a single bite and then leave its victim. The normal approach is to attack with one bite and leave the victim to bleed to death before going back to feed, thus preventing any damage to its eyes from a thrashing seal.

The initial attack is usually a raking slash with the lower jaw and does not normally involve removal of a bite of this kind. The flesh can catastrophically be laid open by such an attack but is rarely completely removed. This bite mark is feeding and I am not sure if the bite profile tells us as much as the report suggests. I have seen pictures of damage to whales from a wide variety of species such as the oceanic whitetip that corresponded to this kind of feature. It actually takes a moment to shake the victim to remove the flesh in this way (whatever the shark species and its dentition) so I suspect this seal was scavenged rather than killed by the shark.

Incidentally, wasn't there a GWS corpse washed up in Scotland somr time back?

Cheers,

Adam

Sharks were my thing long before I became interested in birds and I do not recall this report but I would be happy to defer if someone has further information.


Ian

 

[Nightranger]

Ian
The 29 footer has (to my understanding) been proven to be a questionable record as have most of the 20ft+ Maltese sharks, I can't comment on the "20 footers being regularly seen in the Azores" as I haven't heard much about them but would suggest these may be old records?

Speaking of sharks in the Azores did anyone see the classic episode of John Wilson's go fishing where an unidentified object swallowed his big tuna and swam off with it in the azores?

The 29-footer was photographed on the back of a trailer (I think H David Baldridge's Shark Attack may have a picture from what I remember) and I am sure the size is reliably verified although there may be a dispute about precise inches. I have certainly seen a picture of this shark with people to give it scale and it was a bulky monster so heaven knows what it was feeding on. Sadly, you could be right about the age of the records because many of these creatures will have been fished out given they probably take an age to reach that size. It is genuinely known that GWS populations have a geographical size grouping in that Californian sharks average a smaller size than the western Australian population. The Azores population may be partly explained by the remoteness of the location and the lack of competition for all directions. As per my comment above, I wonder whether they may have fed in deep water in contrast to other GWS populations because there is an abundance of squid around the Azores to attract good sperm and pilot whale populations. I doubt the GWS would have been agile enough to make a living off the Cetaceans when reaching this size unless there is an unusually high mortality rate amongst the whales.

I did not see the John Wilson programme but it is worth noting there are also huge sixgills in the area. They are often hooked but seldom landed because they go deep and it is better to cut the line short rather than lose the lot, as they are almost impossible to turn towards the surface.

Ian

 

[Isurus]

The 29-footer was photographed on the back of a trailer (I think H David Baldridge's Shark Attack may have a picture from what I remember) and I am sure the size is reliably verified although there may be a dispute about precise inches. I have certainly seen a picture of this shark with people to give it scale and it was a bulky monster so heaven knows what it was feeding on.

Ian
Not the original Ellis research but the best I could do with google (interestingly it gives a different size still for the Azores Giant):
http://www.jawshark.com/great_white_recorded_sizes.html

btw you mentioned Oceanics in a post above - has there been a britsh record? the only north european one I'm familar with is the one that turned up in Sweden or Norway earlier this decade.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Hi Alan,

I tend to agree, I doubt GWS are as regular as the tabloids want us to believe but I am sure they do arrive as vagrants from time to time. It would be interesting to know the frequency but I am guessing one every decade or less making them a three-star rarity in birding terms. For the record, we get occasional visits from quite a variety of big (carnivorous) sharks.

Porbeagle
Mako
Blue shark
Greenland/sleeper shark (a ****ing huge dogfish)
Sixgill shark
Tope (these would be dangerous if they grew larger)
Thresher shark (possibly two species)

All regular
--------------------------------

Hammerhead shark (great hammerhead and possibly, one or two other species)
Oceanic whitetip (look at the global distribution and don't get shipwrecked)

Very rare but worrying
----------------------------------

Tiger shark is theoretically possible but tends to favour warm water and is not strictly speaking, oceanic.

Ian

I was aware of the ones I highlighted Ian, but the others were news to me, particularly the Oceanic White Tip - a nasty piece of work.

Tope are regularly fished for in the southern north sea and English Channel (Thames Estuary is popular) by anglers from beach and boat. I think the current rod record is a female (they grow bigger) about 80lb

 

[dantheman]

It wasn't a semi-retired pro golfer out for a quick snack then?

http://www.shark.com/

(And Seal's comeback looks a bit short-lived, if we're looking at minor celebrities in this fashion- what was he doing in the north sea anyway?)

 

[StuartReeves]

I've seen sliced up seals, particularly pups, quite few times when out birding on the North Norfolk coast and eslewhere. I strongly suspect the story to be rather more sad than that of a Great White Shark being present. Looks very much like it's been sliced by a boat propeller to me.

Edit: serrated bite marks could have been caused by any number of things with teeth after the initial slicing

I think Ilya's suggestion is much more likely than the wild speculation about large sharks in the North Sea. Porbeagle is the only large shark that regualrly occurs in the North Sea. While Blues, Threshers and maybe even Mako maybe regular of the South-west of Britain, the North Sea is a very different environment oceanographically. A good analogy would be Wilson's Petrel or Great Shearwater, both of which occur in the Atlantic waters of the South-West but are very rare in the North Sea.

 

[Isurus]

I think Ilya's suggestion is much more likely than the wild speculation about large sharks in the North Sea. Porbeagle is the only large shark that regualrly occurs in the North Sea. While Blues, Threshers and maybe even Mako maybe regular of the South-west of Britain, the North Sea is a very different environment oceanographically. A good analogy would be Wilson's Petrel or Great Shearwater, both of which occur in the Atlantic waters of the South-West but are very rare in the North Sea.

Agreed, that or my earlier theory of fox damage on a beached dead seal. Always fun to discuss big predatory fishies though :t:

 

[Nightranger]

Ian
Not the original Ellis research but the best I could do with google (interestingly it gives a different size still for the Azores Giant):
http://www.jawshark.com/great_white_recorded_sizes.html

btw you mentioned Oceanics in a post above - has there been a britsh record? the only north european one I'm familar with is the one that turned up in Sweden or Norway earlier this decade.

Thanks Isurus,

I am sure the Azores shark was bigger but the problem always comes when western scientists refuse to accept hearsay evidence. I am not saying Megalodon still exists but maximum sizes are always going to be limited to what is reliably recorded whatever that means. I would have been happy to accept 36ft for the Port Ferry/Fairy shark were the jaws not still in existence and then again, there are the Broughton Island visual records.

I am not sure if oceanic whitetip has been reliably recorded in British waters but most distribution maps show the species covering this area. They seem to avoid the continental shelf region and this extends far beyond British waters in most directions apart from the Outer Hebrides. The Scandinavian records are explained by a tongue of deep oceanic water that extends into the very northern part of the North Sea almost to the entrance of the Baltic.

Ian

 

[Nightranger]

I was aware of the ones I highlighted Ian, but the others were news to me, particularly the Oceanic White Tip - a nasty piece of work.

Tope are regularly fished for in the southern north sea and English Channel (Thames Estuary is popular) by anglers from beach and boat. I think the current rod record is a female (they grow bigger) about 80lb

Hi Alan

See another post for explanation of the oceanic whitetip but I believe hammerhead spp has been reported in British waters but I could not tell you what the reference was. I am not even sure if the species was identified for certain but there are three species that could be (potentially) encountered in the eastern Atlantic with great hammerhead being the most likely. Sixgill have been hooked but not landed just off the Scilly Isles and elsewhere in the western approaches. The Californian inshore record (several individuals) was documented in film and suggests sixgills are inshore species more than was realised. They are certainly landed in trawls from time to time although the point of capture is rarely recorded (British boats) with absolute certainty and may still be on the edge of the continental shelf. Greenland/sleeper is a similar example and has been landed in inshore trawls. Indeed, this species may have been common around northern coasts but being a slow-growing species, it is vulnerable to over-fishing of a relative low level. Greenland shark flesh is actually toxic but can be rendered safe to eat when putrefied by storing at low temperature for a month or more. I can see this on Rick Stein's menu any time now. :eat:

Ian

 

[Nightranger]

I think Ilya's suggestion is much more likely than the wild speculation about large sharks in the North Sea. Porbeagle is the only large shark that regualrly occurs in the North Sea. While Blues, Threshers and maybe even Mako maybe regular of the South-west of Britain, the North Sea is a very different environment oceanographically. A good analogy would be Wilson's Petrel or Great Shearwater, both of which occur in the Atlantic waters of the South-West but are very rare in the North Sea.

I agree for the pups! However, this is a larger animal and there are no multiple lesions that suggest the animal was run down alive or dead. I am fairly confident this is a scavenged animal and a shark is the likely culprit. I am also fairly sure this is not the work of a GWS but there is no reason to discount some of the larger species. I tend to favour sixgill following the discussion on this thread but I am amazed that so many people tdo not realise that this species is a genuine one for British waters. Most big game anglers dream of coaxing one of these monsters towards the surface but the recent information from California suggests they may not be restricted to deep water anyway. Even the examples hooked on the edge of the continental shelf (in British waters) were essentially, in surface waters even if they headed down when hooked.

Ian

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I saw some film of Greenland sharks mooching about under the icecap once. When it comes to eating the stuff, all I can say is I'm pleased I'm not an Icelander.