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Cumbrian orchids ?? (1 Viewer)

Andy Atkinson

Druridge Bayer
Hope someone can help....
I'm planning a trip to Cumbria soon and wondered if anyone out there has any good sites for orchids or helleborines.

I've photographed most species in my own county Northumberland and need to widen my scope a bit. Any butterfly sites while I'm there would be good too!
 
Limestone to the West and South of Kendal apart from Gaitbarrows NNR which is the jewel in the crown - any of the place names with " Barrow " will do - there will usually be a mixture of grassland/woodland and poss some open pavement which will yield a good range of spp - Humphrey Head is excellent for a good range inc Spiked Speedwell - and area i lived in for 3 Spring/Summers in the 70's was the Lyth Valley at the head of which is Newby Bridge - it is famous for its' Damsons and associated blossom - the valley is dominated by a huge Limestone massif called Whitbarrow the high point being the " Lords Seat " - drive to the top end of the valley to a little hamlet called " Row " and park up - take an OS map and walk up a tarmac track past " Row Wood " when i lived there in a caravan it was just limestone woodland but i think it is now a cumbria trust reserve and they have been coppicing for charcoal etc - opposite this wood is open limestone fell which will yield good walking and botanising all the way back down the valley - this was my ' garden ' in the 70's it is absolutely superb with lots of orchids etc we had 16 species during our surveys and we gave the info that made the Cumbria Trust acquire the wood - we found Mezereon which was unknown but the Trust but a little old lady who used to live in one of the cottages used to cut it for pea sticks in Feb/March because of the ' pretty Pink flowers ' !
You will not be disappointed in the area - there is so much too see - the woodlands of Back and Underbarrow are excellent - Whitbarrow has Peregrines.

If i think of anything else i will post accordingly

best of luck i am envious of your visit

Laurie
 
Our Bee Orchids are in bloom on the Hodbarrow reserve,lots of people taking macro shots,last week,although whether or not they are still at their best I am not sure.The Hodbarrow nature reserve is a SSP for rare flora and fauna.If you do visit the reserve,there are lots of Terns with young at the moment,very noisy and full of birds.But for wildflowers the area is noted for its content.
 
Hope no one minds me sneeking a question of my own into this thread. I am new to all things botanical but was at Whinlatter to see the Ospreys at the weekend and had some good views but not much else in the way of birdlife so I was taking some interest in the flora. I found Spotted Orchids and other Orchids which looked almost identical but without the spotted leaves. I have had a look at my newly purchased guide book but I am unable to see anything that is down for that area that looks similar. Sure this is me just being a bit thick but I wonder if anyone can help please? The Orchids were in Whinlater forest.
 
Brian,I have just looked in one of my books,do you think it is one of the Marsh Orchids.Adey would know ,he is an expert on flora and fauna,pity you have not a photo,
 
Thanks Christine. No i did not think it was a Marsh Orchid. I have seen them recently and the Marsh was much smaller. Rather more like a Fragrant Orchid in shape and I would have plumped for that one had it not been that my book suggests that they don't appear in that area. Oh well it has taught me to atleast take some notes in future. I console my self with the fact no one else who saw them were sure either and some seemed to know a bit about flowers, or so they tell me!!
Cheers.
 
If you return to the site,Brian,why not take a couple of photos,borrow a cam if you do not have one,you may have found a rare species!!!
 
brianfm said:
Thanks Christine. No i did not think it was a Marsh Orchid. I have seen them recently and the Marsh was much smaller. Rather more like a Fragrant Orchid in shape and I would have plumped for that one had it not been that my book suggests that they don't appear in that area. Oh well it has taught me to atleast take some notes in future. I console my self with the fact no one else who saw them were sure either and some seemed to know a bit about flowers, or so they tell me!!
Cheers.

I don't know where Whinlatter is, and at this time of night I'm not going to try to find out, but pretty well anywhere that has orchids can have Fragrant Orchid. It comes in three, ecologically differentiated subspecies, so it has most bases covered.

Don't rely to heavily on leaf spots, especially in Marsh Orchids. Presence/absence is often a variable character.

Alan
 
Thanks Alan, thats very helpful. Think I may find this part of the forum of great help as I try to expand my limited (very!) botanical knowledge. Having looked at the book again I am pretty sure they were Fragrant Orchids. Lot of them as well. Only stalled when I noted map suggested they were not seen in this part of the lake district. I perhaps ought to know better having seen many birds where they ought not to be. Just for you info, Whinlatter is a pass which leads from Bassenthwaite/Keswick to the lake areas of Crummock Water and eventually Buttermere. A Beautiful area that I have visited since I was a small child.

Cheers
 
Hi all,

All three species of Fragrant occur in the Lakes. If this helps they are:

conopsea ("standard" fragrant) - pink, slender spikes with quite a number of flowers. Can be anywahere, but grassy hillsides are good.
Densiflora (marsh fragrant) taller, with darker flowers more densely packed on the stem. Occurs in wetter habitats.
borealis (heath fragrant) - smaller, with fewer, sparser flowers on the spike. Occurs as its name suggest on fryer, heathy habitats.

The way to tell a marsh orchid from other types is to check the length of the bracts (the leafy bit at the base of the flowers); on Marsh orchids this is usually long, and often stick out further than the flowers. On Fragrants and other purple orchids, this is less prominent.

Hope this helps.

Sean
 
I would like to thank everyone for their help and apologise to Alan for sort of taking over his thread with my query. I have learnt a lot this week! I am sure the Orchids in question were fragrant Orchids and in fact seemed to include two sub species. One of them was a much darker shade than the others, that, I did notice. As for Spurs etc, well I have to pass I'm afraid. I am almost tempted to buy a rather nice book on British/Irish Orchids I have seen recently advertised but better not get too carried away just yet.

Cheers all.
 
I was'nt aware of any subspecies of Fragrant Orchids occuring in either wet or heathy habitats i am familiar with it on unimproved calcareous grassland as conopsea which has always ( to my eyes and nose anyway ) been a distinct colour shape and smell - has this sp been split into sub-types recently ???

Alan - can you throw any light on this ? - i would be most interested

laurie
 
rollingthunder said:
I was'nt aware of any subspecies of Fragrant Orchids occuring in either wet or heathy habitats i am familiar with it on unimproved calcareous grassland as conopsea which has always ( to my eyes and nose anyway ) been a distinct colour shape and smell - has this sp been split into sub-types recently ???

Alan - can you throw any light on this ? - i would be most interested

laurie

Ghostly Vision already gives an outline summary of them. They are generally considered to be subspecies rather than species, though.

As is often the case, the best summary is given in 'Plant Crib 1998', edited by Rich & Jermy and published by the Botanical Society of the British Isles. Should be available from their agent, Summerfield Books. A very good compilation of hints and tips on numerous difficult plant groups (though I had better admit to being a contributor). The Gymnadenia account, with valuable drawings, is by Frances Rose, who has known all three taxa for a long time.

Spp. borealis is a generally smaller plant than conopsea, with a different, often clove scented fragrance. It is the much the commonest subspecies in Scotland and, yes, it can grow on acid heathland (sometimes forms sterile hybrids with Heath-Spotted Orchid). Less common in England but gets down to the Lizard and the New Forest. It might be better considered a distinct species.

As Ghostly Vision says, ssp. densiflora occurs in wet places, typically in calcareous flushes and fens, sometimes in dryer spots where it can hybridise extensively with ssp. conopsea. When well grown it has very solid, cylindrical flower-spikes, but it is not always easy to tell at a glance.

Attention to critical details of labellum shape and other parts of the flower is necessary to be sure of identification of any of these.
And I will suggest to Brianfm that if he didn't see the distinctive spurs, then I don't think he should be 100% confident that what he saw were Fragrant Orchids. Sorry. It's a pretty essential feature to check.

Alan
 
Alan - as usual your pertinent points will be copied and pasted to whatevever physical and metaphorical HDD i have available - this is all very confusing for somebody that has spent 30 years looking at Fragrant Orchids in a range of habitats and being confident of the spp - only on the rare occasion having to check the length of the spur because i am looking at a ' runt ' or a ' deliverance-type banjo-playing throwback '

I remember seeing Green Warbler on the Isles of Scilly in the early 80's and then several years later seeing Two Barred Greenish Warbler on Gugh ( the former on St Mary's ) only to see both ' lumped ' with Greenish Warbler ( of which i had seen several ) - i think i will have to start studying ..............moths.......Laurie
 
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