AOS to discard patronyms in English names (2 Viewers)

[mb1848]

"Maybe they did not get Winker's resignation letter yet?"
Normand David's letter as well.

 

[Myornis]

Except that it simply says "The South American Classification Committee was founded in 1998" whereas it formerly said "The South American Classification Committee, founded in 1998, is an official committee of the American Ornithological Society".

I'd say it's an extremely difficult task to take over and successfully operate a website which has been run by a single person for a quarter of a century, so it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

Well spotted!

(SACC are, true to form and at the same time, doing a truly awful job right now in reaching to not accept the (good) split of Campephilus splendens - which most other checklists accept, based on clear differences in number of notes in drumming. Drumming differences are regarded as good to define species limits in other woodpeckers.

Treat Celeus grammicus as conspecific with Celeus undatus

FWIW on the comments, yes there is a study, cited but not linked in the proposal, worth reading. And as for Powerful Woodpecker, that occurs at higher elevations in different kinds of forest (high elevation oak forest, not hot lowland forest) and does not overlap in elevation or habitat as far as I am aware. I've studied several gradients in which Powerful and Crimson-group species occur, and there are gaps at mid elevations where neither occurs. So pointing to that species is pretty classic grandstanding (I'm a great scientist so I need a perfect study in Molecular Phylogenetics & Evolution to accept any changes) and whataboutery.... More data is always good, but these are very, very rare birds. I'm lucky to have seen and handled both of them, at sites studied intensively for 5 days, but only saw these birds once or twice each at most. They occur at low densities in high quality forest and seem often to occupy lower forest strata than other Campephilus so are difficult to locate on trunks to match calls or drums to species (since other big woodpeckers like Dryocopus, with its 4-5 drums, also occur in the same space). There is a reason there are few sound recordings for rare birds that are difficult to see even in range and in perfect habitat; and waiting for a perfect data set that might sate some committee members is likely to take decades....

Of course though, Remsen just said that IOC was better to follow than AOS, so maybe they will change tack?)

 

[Myornis]

"Maybe they did not get Winker's resignation letter yet?"
Normand David's letter as well.

I guess it would be hard for Normand David to send such a letter; I had understood that he passed away recently:

Normand David

In Montreal passed away on April 17 2023, at the age of 78, Mr Normand David. He leaves to mourn many relatives and friends.

www.urgelbourgie.com

 

[Andy Adcock]

"Maybe they did not get Winker's resignation letter yet?"
Normand David's letter as well.

Is that three down now then?

 

[Andy Adcock]

I remember looking for Baer's Pochards in China (....on no another patronym) - anyway, the Chinese name for Ferruginous Duck is 'Bai Yan' Duck ('bai' for white and 'yan' for eye) but in the Beijing dialect this is said as 'Bai Yar' - you can guess the confusion! Latin names and a quick reference to field guides saved the day - although we didn't see any Baer's (or Ferruginous Ducks) [...at least on that occasion].

The other English name being White-eyed Pochard.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

I guess it would be hard for Normand David to send such a letter; I had understood that he passed away recently:

Normand David

In Montreal passed away on April 17 2023, at the age of 78, Mr Normand David. He leaves to mourn many relatives and friends.

www.urgelbourgie.com

Yeah, he passed away in February or Marsh. He was my supervisor

 

[Andy Adcock]

The Birding Lists Digest

digest.sialia.com

I thought this was quite funny from one of the resigning committee members re English names: "We and other ornithological groups can cite any set of any standardized English names we want when we produce our own official lists, and this could be decided by a vote of its members rather than be forced on you by the leaders you elected, as happened in AOS. ... One immediately viable alternative is the International Ornithological Committee (IOC) World List ... I see no reason why we should bow down to an edict handed to us from an elite group of virtue-signalers obviously disinterested in what you think because they already know what’s best."

Apparently, IOC is the way to go now, despite the hyphens and all those previously dodgy splits (which are now fine, because they keep some patronyms!).

Many of those are from the Oriental region and a good number are being reversed, anyone tell me why, I presume the evidence was not sufficient?

If one were being cynical, you could imagine a link with what Lerxt asked, in this thread in message 384.

 

[qwerty5]

Re: the bolded section, I thought the same way, initially. But, after further consideration, I realized that as an older white guy who has birded for over 50 years, how can I come to that (the bolded) conclusion? I have no basis to do so; I have not walked a mile in any one's shoes but my own.

Exclude: 1
a: to prevent or restrict the entrance of
b: to bar from participation, consideration, or inclusion

How does a bird name prevent or bar someone from participating in the observation of birds? Someone may dislike the name, they may even be offended by the name (although, I would argue, without reason, especially given the argument I made after the bold section you responded to). But to be barred from participation in the hobby of birdwatching is, rationally, an impossibility.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

However, Linnaeus (1758) usage of "Anser cygnoid.", for which he cited various pre-Linnaean "cygnoides" as authority, was omitted from that case. Perhaps by error of omission. So noone really knows what to do with that one.

I find this perplexing. If no one knows what to really do, then surely the answer is to agree to do something, rather than to agree to disagree!

Scientist can have arguments over the correct name, or be pragmatic and adopt a standard, global and immutable name for all a taxa. I prefer the latter option.

 

[mb1848]

"Yeah, he passed away in February or Marsh. He was my supervisor"
A great loss. All his publications were well written and beautifully researched. I was just trying to taunt the NACC a second time. No disrespect intended.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Essentially most cases do not get referred to the Commission.

So what does this mean? Can I send a case to the Commission, or just the organisations producing taxonomic list (who probably don’t want their own view challenged and potentially overridden). And what power does the Commission have to enforce a decision - I can’t see how IOC, Clements, BirdLife, AOS or anyone else can be forced to comply. Which presumably means they could change scientific names if they so wished.

 

[qwerty5]

Naming things after rich people was and still is a political statement.

Who is currently making the argument to name birds after rich people?
Or are you saying that simply having birds named after rich people is a political statement? If so, how?

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Who is currently making the argument to name birds after rich people

Now that’s an idea. Next time a new species is found we can auction off the naming rights to fund conservation. When I win the lottery, I can then perhaps get a bird named after me!

 

[Andy Adcock]

Can you provide more details? I have been annoyed for some time about why different taxonomies use different scientific names for birds - one that comes to mind is Anser cygnoides (IOC and Clements) and Anser cygnoid (BirdLife) - but when I was doing some mapping work, I discovered plenty more. Also your sill see notes published by taxonomic authorities that say 'use of XXXX has precedence over YYYY'. My original belief was that names were assigned by some authority, and could not be changed, but IOC, Clements and BirdLife appear to have a lot of leniency in making their own decisions.

In 'some' cases, it can be caused by one of the authors making a linguistic error which later, gets corrected?

 

[andrew147]

Who is currently making the argument to name birds after rich people?
Or are you saying that simply having birds named after rich people is a political statement? If so, how?

The point I was making is that naming these birds after 'prominent' people, frequently people who did not contribute to ornithology, was a political move in the first place. So, to complain that re-naming them is political does not pack the intended punch.

 

[Paul Clapham]

I find this perplexing. If no one knows what to really do, then surely the answer is to agree to do something, rather than to agree to disagree!

Scientist can have arguments over the correct name, or be pragmatic and adopt a standard, global and immutable name for all a taxa. I prefer the latter option.

That's not what I've heard about scientists. It's more like, scientific disputes end when one of the participants dies.

 

[Paul Clapham]

Now that’s an idea. Next time a new species is found we can auction off the naming rights to fund conservation. When I win the lottery, I can then perhaps get a bird named after me!

Already happening. Have a look at Want to name a new frog? from the NY Times 5 years ago.

 

[qwerty5]

The point I was making is that naming these birds after 'prominent' people, frequently people who did not contribute to ornithology, was a political move in the first place. So, to complain that re-naming them is political does not pack the intended punch.

Whether or not it was political then really has no bearing on us changing them for political reasons now. And anyway that wasn't really the point. The point was that some birders may start making political statements with which names they use (ie. if you use the old patronyms or the new names)

 

[Farnboro John]

I find this perplexing. If no one knows what to really do, then surely the answer is to agree to do something, rather than to agree to disagree!

Scientist can have arguments over the correct name, or be pragmatic and adopt a standard, global and immutable name for all a taxa. I prefer the latter option.

I don't always follow Napoleon, and it's always worth bearing in mind that he ultimately lost, but his "If in doubt, do nothing" is a model of common sense.

John

 

[Mysticete]

Now that’s an idea. Next time a new species is found we can auction off the naming rights to fund conservation. When I win the lottery, I can then perhaps get a bird named after me!

Let me introduce you to the Madidi Titi Monkey:

"Its scientific name is Plecturocebus aureipalatii,[2] the specific epithet meaning "of the Golden Palace", in reference to GoldenPalace.com, an online casino which paid US$650,000 to have the species named after it, with benefits going toward the nonprofit organization that maintains the park where the titi was discovered."