Where are made the Conquest HD (1 Viewer)

[GrampaTom]

Edmund,
One of my all time favorite pop songs is Don Henley's "Dirty Laundry." The line "when the bubble headed bleached blond comes on at five..." has stuck in head for way too long. Ear worm? My and others popular perceptions of journalists is they do like controversy. Does/doesn't the press operate operate under a theme of controversy sells? If you work in that world, can you become conditioned to it? I don't know, not saying, just wonder.

What sells newspapers though is not what sells the stuff we like to buy, though.

The PR guys at my firm were absolutely charged with putting the best spin on things. Congenitally devious and deceitful though, is not how I thought of them. You might say Pollyanna, but I would say rather they had a job to do, to keep the company away from controversy. We all know of the exceptions, e.g. tobacco, opioids. Its true, but with stuff as generally benign as binoculars putting the best foot forward is not quite the same as being congenitally deceitful.

Im with Troubador here.

 

[eronald]

Edmund,
One of my all time favorite pop songs is Don Henley's "Dirty Laundry." The line "when the bubble headed bleached blond comes on at five..." has stuck in head for way too long. Ear worm? My and others popular perceptions of journalists is they do like controversy. Does/doesn't the press operate operate under a theme of controversy sells? If you work in that world, can you become conditioned to it? I don't know, not saying, just wonder.

What sells newspapers though is not what sells the stuff we like to buy, though.

The PR guys at my firm were absolutely charged with putting the best spin on things. Congenitally devious and deceitful though, is not how I thought of them. You might say Pollyanna, but I would say rather they had a job to do, to keep the company away from controversy. We all know of the exceptions, e.g. tobacco, opioids. Its true, but with stuff as generally benign as binoculars putting the best foot forward is not quite the same as being congenitally deceitful.

Im with Troubador here.

GrampaTom,

There was a rite of passage at one computer magazine I worked at, which was the PR person of IBM calling and asking for you to be fired. It was a regular occurrence and the editor would put her on loudspeaker.

She had quite a rep at the company apparently in her previous job, knew where all the bodies were buried, and asked to get the PR job, whereupon she continued on her path of threat and blackmail but with the journos and editors as targets. This lady played bad cop, some others I heard of who always got what they wanted by way by being … very nice

I do agree with you that many companies retain PR people who simply put their best foot forward with tact and patience, and build personal relationships, and get the job done well without any fuss. However many other PR flaks choose to use their company’s advertising budgets as a kudgel to wield in order to get the treatment they think the big fish in their particular small pond deserves.

Controversy is indeed one of the things which sells, but actually timely news and analysis works quite well in the pro press - think Financial Times. Or in the case of optics, don’t you think that anyone with a record of clean technical reviews will garner a readership?

Edmund

 

[jan van daalen]

I think you must see it in the light of history.
The original Conquest was made in the Hungarian plant of Zeiss. Discussing economics Zeiss decided to outsource the production of the Conquest to a OEM in Japan and later on the Terra to a OEM in China. When the Conquest HD was launched the text of the brochure put Made in Germany as "Made in Germany", which caused a lot of discussions on the IWA (the event where the Conquest was launched) between Zeiss dealers and Zeiss staff.
The staff, surprised by all this, reacted that the Conquest was Made in Germany and refused flat out further discussions .
In those days the distribution of Zeiss in The Netherlands was done by a third party and they, not knowing the Zeiss position, told me that the Conquest was made in Japan.
Confronting the Head of Zeiss optics with this fact (and told him not to f...k with me as that would have consequences), he told me that the Conquest was indeed Made in Japan but with exclusive Zeiss manufacturing equipment like the high vacuum coating device and the Conquest was shipped to Germany in five pieces. In Wetzlar it got put together under Zeiss QC.
On that same Fair I spoke with the owner of a Belgium based optics brand who told me that his top optics from Japan currently were coated with the new Zeiss coatings. There goes exclusive.......
Later in time, Zeiss took the distribution of their optics in The Netherlands in their own hands. The former distributor was not amused and told me that the only thing that was done to the Conquest in Germany was mounting the eyecups on the Conquest to make the device in a working state so, by European Law, it was Made in Germany.
Who to believe.

Fact is that nowadays it is "accepted" that a A-brand outsources it's production to third parties as long as the quality is in order. When Zeiss outsourced the production of the Conquest, I was confused. What to tell the customer. They were under the impression they bought a Zeiss product and not a Japanese product labelled "Made in Germany". It took some time and heated discussions but these days it is not such a problem as long as it is explained to the customer.

Currently there is no production in Wetzlar. It all went to Oberkochen. Maybe it would be a idea when Zeiss would make a promotion movie how they make/assemble the Conquest so for once and for all these kind of discussions come to an end.

Jan

Today I got a visit from Zeiss and was told that only management moved to Oberkochen, but complete production still occurs in Wetzlar.
So my last sentence above is now corrected.
Also I was told that Zeiss management never ever said the Conquest was made in Japan. It comes completely from Japan in five parts, assembly takes place in Wetzlar so it is Made in Germany and not in Japan (according to Zeiss management)..........

Jan

 

[ZDHart]

With so much speculation, one must wonder:

Is it possible to visit Zeiss factory in Germany?

Does the Zeiss factory in Germany welcome any visitors or offer any tours?

Has anyone attempted to visit the factory and take a tour?

 

[jring]

Hi,

I can only repeat what was in the press:

Oct 2017 - Union protests due to Zeiss axing 220 (of a total of 300) Zeiss Sports Optics jobs in Wetzlar - 140 let go and 80 offered to move to Oberkochen.

Mitarbeiter protestieren gegen Stellenabbau

Nach dem überraschend angekündigten Abbau von 220 Arbeitsplätzen bei Zeiss Sports Optics in Wetzlar ruft die Gewerkschaft IG Metall alle Mitarbeiter zur Kundgebung am Freitag auf.

www.op-marburg.de

Feb 2018 - Negotiations ongoing - 20 of the 80 employees to move to Oberkochen have left the company already. Plans are to "keep production in Wetzlar with 110 remaining employees concentrating on final assembly, service and repairs".

Zeiss: Bis Ostern sollen Ergebnisse vorliegen

Bis Ostern will Zeiss die Zukunft seiner Sports-Optics-Sparte in Wetzlar geregelt haben. Seit Wochen laufen dafür die Verhandlungen am Zeiss-Sitz in Oberkochen. Die IG Metall sieht noch immer viele offene Fragen.

www.mittelhessen.de

Interestingly nothing else was to be found in the news - I would have expected some coverage on a change of plans by Zeiss...

Everybody can judge for themselves how much manufacturing depth remains with the fraction off those 110 employees doing final assembly.

Joachim

 

[Prestdj]

so the parts are made in japan and assembled in germany? so there made in japan? a bit like flat pack furniture made in sweden, but once youve put the bits together it can be made anywhere, seems very fraudulant

 

[Troubador]

Hi,

I can only repeat what was in the press:

Oct 2017 - Union protests due to Zeiss axing 220 (of a total of 300) Zeiss Sports Optics jobs in Wetzlar - 140 let go and 80 offered to move to Oberkochen.

Mitarbeiter protestieren gegen Stellenabbau

Nach dem überraschend angekündigten Abbau von 220 Arbeitsplätzen bei Zeiss Sports Optics in Wetzlar ruft die Gewerkschaft IG Metall alle Mitarbeiter zur Kundgebung am Freitag auf.

www.op-marburg.de

Feb 2018 - Negotiations ongoing - 20 of the 80 employees to move to Oberkochen have left the company already. Plans are to "keep production in Wetzlar with 110 remaining employees concentrating on final assembly, service and repairs".

Zeiss: Bis Ostern sollen Ergebnisse vorliegen

Bis Ostern will Zeiss die Zukunft seiner Sports-Optics-Sparte in Wetzlar geregelt haben. Seit Wochen laufen dafür die Verhandlungen am Zeiss-Sitz in Oberkochen. Die IG Metall sieht noch immer viele offene Fragen.

www.mittelhessen.de

Interestingly nothing else was to be found in the news - I would have expected some coverage on a change of plans by Zeiss...

Everybody can judge for themselves how much manufacturing depth remains with the fraction off those 110 employees doing final assembly.

Joachim

Here is an extract from the interview I conducted with Christian Bannert of Zeiss in July 2019:


Bannert: "Three years ago we decided that the Wetzlar factory needed to be re-organised and brought up-to-date, to provide the facilities needed for high-end assembly, especially for our Victory products, and to improve the working environment for our employees. So, to improve efficiency and quality, the assembly lines have been rather fundamentally re-organised based on ‘lean-production’ principles, and incorporating new digitalised processing methods, for binoculars, rifle- and spotting scopes. The production of components has been moved to either our factory in Hungary or out-sourced to approved suppliers within the global ZEISS manufacturing network. I will say more about our Hungary factory later.

To be clear, Wetzlar is now focused on high-quality assembly, testing and quality assurance, Hungary on the production of optical components (lenses and prisms) and subassemblies. Our plant in Hungary is very important to us and has been part of the Zeiss manufacturing network for about 30 years, it produces spectacle lenses for Zeiss VisionCare, and has produced binoculars in the recent past, so they definitely have the knowledge, the skills and the experience we need".

Lee

 

[CSG]

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

[jan van daalen]

Well, at least at the end, we can all conclude for ourselves where the Conquests are made.

Jan

 

[CSG]

Well, it sounds like Zeiss designed parts are made in Japan on Zeiss designed/approved equipment and sent in 5 sub assemblies back to Germany for assembly, QC, packaging and shipping? About right? Does it matter??

 

[AlphaFan]

I’m a bit mystified as to why some have chosen to continue targeting this particular binocular and company to the point of asserting actual fraud WRT place of manufacture. After all, while based in Germany, Zeiss is a massive company that owns and has even broader controlling interests in numerous world-wide manufacturing operations, and partnerships with other brands, manufacturers and suppliers. In today’s global economy with ever increasing reliance on efficiency and economies of scale governing manufacturing costs and competitive pricing, virtually no globally-marketed device with a similar number of complex and specialized components are wholly sourced, fabricated, combined, synergized, calibrated, QA’d, packaged, and shipped from a single plant, location or even country. So, do I believe the Conquest is wholly made in Germany? = “no.” Do I believe the EL or NL Pure is wholly made in Austria = “no.” Do I believe the Trinovid or Noctivid is wholly made in Portugal or Germany? = “no.” But I also do not believe Zeiss is committing fraud with their “Made in Germany” label. If someone truly believes they are, please submit the allegation and any supporting evidence to the proper German and/or EU authorities.

Zeiss sport optics is actually a small part of the company’s business. In their line of binoculars there are other models specifically claimed to not be German made. So Zeiss has already demonstrated willingness to declare some of their sport optics to be of other than German manufacture where appropriate. Under German, EU and the laws of some other countries they are sold in, the “Made in Germany” label requires a certain % of the contributions to the product’s creation and value to occur where it is claimed to be made. I’m confident that Zeiss is fulfilling those requirements, which surely involve more than putting on eyecups or a single tech just slapping some pre-fab components together.

At least part of this issue can likely be attributed to the contrast between the pre-and-post globalized economy and accompanying perspectives on place of manufacture. It is nowhere near as clear as it used to be. Today, the Conquest HD enjoys a well-earned reputation as a very high quality binocular and one of the very best available at its price-point. When admiring the explosive colors and fine detail of migrating warblers I doubt many will care where some some of its components may have been fabricated.

 

[Troubador]

Here is an extract from the interview I conducted with Christian Bannert of Zeiss in July 2019:


Bannert: "Three years ago we decided that the Wetzlar factory needed to be re-organised and brought up-to-date, to provide the facilities needed for high-end assembly, especially for our Victory products, and to improve the working environment for our employees. So, to improve efficiency and quality, the assembly lines have been rather fundamentally re-organised based on ‘lean-production’ principles, and incorporating new digitalised processing methods, for binoculars, rifle- and spotting scopes. The production of components has been moved to either our factory in Hungary or out-sourced to approved suppliers within the global ZEISS manufacturing network. I will say more about our Hungary factory later.

To be clear, Wetzlar is now focused on high-quality assembly, testing and quality assurance, Hungary on the production of optical components (lenses and prisms) and subassemblies. Our plant in Hungary is very important to us and has been part of the Zeiss manufacturing network for about 30 years, it produces spectacle lenses for Zeiss VisionCare, and has produced binoculars in the recent past, so they definitely have the knowledge, the skills and the experience we need".

Lee

Some of the detail changes that Herr Bannert referred to included:
Moving components closer to the persons using them.
Moving colleagues who needed to communicate or co-operate over a procedure closer together.
The written work instructions for each procedure were re-written and illustrated with photographs rather than diagrams.

Lee

 

[eronald]

Well, it sounds like Zeiss designed parts are made in Japan on Zeiss designed/approved equipment and sent in 5 sub assemblies back to Germany for assembly, QC, packaging and shipping? About right? Does it matter??

About does it matter, that is a question for the customer to decide.

Frankly, seeing my recent Zeiss experiences, I would prefer to get a simple white box with Kamakura stencilled on the outside, together with "made in Japan", and a 2 year warranty, at 1/3 of the price of the Zeiss product. Japanese optical engineers are undoubtedly some of the best in the world, I have never heard it said that lack the ability to manufacture optics or do QC.

This sounds suspiciously like an Argentinian cow being shipped to the UK and then locally disassembled to become "British beef".

Edmund

 

[CSG]

About does it matter, that is a question for the customer to decide.

Frankly, seeing my recent Zeiss experiences, I would prefer to get a simple white box with Kamakura stencilled on the outside, together with "made in Japan", and a 2 year warranty, at 1/3 of the price of the Zeiss product. Japanese optical engineers are undoubtedly some of the best in the world, I have never heard it said that lack the ability to manufacture optics or do QC.

This sounds suspiciously like an Argentinian cow being shipped to the UK and then locally disassembled to become "British beef". *

Edmund

*It doesn't sound anything like that. But if you feel you could get the equivalent binoculars from Japan for $300, you should definitely do that. Personally, I haven't seen any $300 bins from any manufacturer that come close to being comparable to the Conquest HD 8x32.

 

[Steve C]

So it seems the made in Germany label is useless and completely duplicitous.

Early on in the Conquest HD introduction, there was a thread here about it. Predictably it went far with thousands of views and responses. The difficulty Jan had with Zeiss over the Japan connection came up there. Somewhere in the discussion somebody, I think it was Brock, did some digging and found that under EU laws, a product only had to have 10% of the production actually done in country to legally pack the "Made in Germany" label. I can't say if that has changed.

Lots of things are legal.

 

[Conndomat]

I think it was Brock, did some digging and found that under EU laws, a product only had to have 10% of the production actually done in country to legally pack the "Made in Germany" label.

Made in Germany - oder doch nicht? Die Zulässigkeitskriterien für die Herkunftsangabe nach der Rechtsprechung

Die geographische Herkunftsangabe „Made in Germany“ ist ein im Vertrieb und in der Werbung häufig eingesetztes Mittel, um den Abnehmern eine besondere Produktqualität zu s...

www.it-recht-kanzlei.de

"In principle, a product may only bear the label “Made in Germany” if those manufacturing steps are carried out in Germany which justify the properties of the product that are responsible for the appreciation of the consumer and are therefore “essential”.

The waiver of the reference "Made in" or "Produced in" and consequently the use of the mere word "Germany" in certain constellations should also have to withstand the admissibility test according to the same standards.
Although the above explanations break down and evaluate in detail all previous knowledge about the "Made in Germany" topic and thus reveal certain patterns, the careless use of these geographical indications of origin should be avoided. If it cannot be assumed with certainty that the essential manufacturing steps for a product take place in Germany, it is usually unavoidable to seek legal help in order to avoid warnings."

Andreas

 

[Troubador]

With so much speculation, one must wonder:

Is it possible to visit Zeiss factory in Germany?

Does the Zeiss factory in Germany welcome any visitors or offer any tours?

Has anyone attempted to visit the factory and take a tour?

I am pretty sure that Zeiss will not offer tours. You have to be set up specifically to do this on a regular basis because occasional visits are so disruptive. Just think of all the precautions necessary:
Ensure no new product prototypes or components are on view.
Ensure no documents, drawings or brochures concerning new product development are on desks, pinned to notice boards, or visible on computer screens.
Check in reception to ensure no brochures illustrating a forthcoming new product have been delivered and are visible (I include this unlikely example as this actually happened at a company I visited).
Ensure that no chalkboards or whiteboards in offices or meeting rooms have anything on them that reveals new product plans or thinking.

And then there are the stats often posted around offices and factory floors that you wouldn't want to reveal to outsiders:
Production targets for this shift/day/ week/ month vs actual production achieved.
Ditto sales targets.
Scrapped product figures, customer complaints figures etc etc etc

Lee

 

[ZDHart]

Many companies have found ways to offer factory tours without sacrificing security of things they want to keep secret. Apparently, Zeiss isn't one of them. Oh well!

Same story with Swaro and Leica? Too much security risk to allow factory tours?

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

In the past I enjoyed factory tours at Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss: no problem and informative.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

And not very long ago also at Meopta and we got to see very detailed steps of the design and production process.
Gijs van Ginkel