Value sweet spot? (1 Viewer)

[ClarkWGriswold]

The premium binoculars are expensive but not so much compared to the other things people spend on, very expensive SUV`s which are never used to their potential, very high performance cars never really stretched on public roads, but why should`nt people enjoy their money as they please.

I justify the expense to myself because I know I get 100% of my optics potential every time I raise them to my eyes, as for the op question I`d say the Kowa Genesis.

In the current climate you can add dogs to that list as well John. French Bulldog or 10x42 Noctivids with a pair of Kowa Genesis for longer walks/travel.

 

[Sterngucker]

Civilian users are happy to pay 2500 euros/dollars for 99 percent edge sharpness, flat field and have to baby-pampers the expensive binoculars. Governments and military rather for tested and certified durability, maintainability, temperatures, water, dust and shock proofness and other features important in the field, in wars.
Germans are known for thoroughness, with search engines one finds their (old) military test conditions - and export restrictions. Service regulations in german military language are known as "Dienstvorschriften". In the German language there is the older term "Feldstecher" besides the civilian term "Fernglas" (binoculars).
For a new West German Zeiss/Hensoldt Fero D16 8x30 you will pay 2500 Euro, for a new Carl Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40 (in East Germany developed, Docter/Noblex sells today 7x40 BGA without reticle, without laser and radiation protection, without "yellow cast") 1200 Euro. Only 70% "sweet spot" - but 100% tested (and certified) for real field use and not only flat field use. ;-)

Which is why I have two Steiners (HX 8x42/Ranger Xtreme 8x32), a brand which for some arcane reasons is completely and utterly ignored here. The HX are in my Denali bino pack, the Rangers are in the truck. They may not be 'alphas', they may not have ED/HD/FL/Fairydust glass, they may not have the widest FOV (actually true this one), but they have an excellent clear view, sharp image with a large sweet spot, fast focus, those very clever little wings on the eyepieces and they are tough as old boots. And, according to Steiner, they are made in Germany. In my book that gives me a good bang for my buck.

 

[Dennis Mau]

Which is why I have two Steiners (HX 8x42/Ranger Xtreme 8x32), a brand which for some arcane reasons is completely and utterly ignored here. The HX are in my Denali bino pack, the Rangers are in the truck. They may not be 'alphas', they may not have ED/HD/FL/Fairydust glass, they may not have the widest FOV (actually true this one), but they have an excellent clear view, sharp image with a large sweet spot, fast focus, those very clever little wings on the eyepieces and they are tough as old boots. And, according to Steiner, they are made in Germany. In my book that gives me a good bang for my buck.

I have tried a lot of different Steiners over the years and I just never felt like they measured up to a lot of the other brands optically and I think a lot of birders feel the same way and that is why they are not discussed much on the forum. I did find the Steiner ShadowQuest 8x56 to be a pretty good binocular but ultimately I found other better 8x56 binoculars.

 

[WJC]

Civilian users are happy to pay 2500 euros/dollars for 99 percent edge sharpness, flat field and have to baby-pampers the expensive binoculars. Governments and military rather for tested and certified durability, maintainability, temperatures, water, dust and shock proofness and other features important in the field, in wars.
Germans are known for thoroughness, with search engines one finds their (old) military test conditions - and export restrictions. Service regulations in german military language are known as "Dienstvorschriften". In the German language there is the older term "Feldstecher" besides the civilian term "Fernglas" (binoculars).
For a new West German Zeiss/Hensoldt Fero D16 8x30 you will pay 2500 Euro, for a new Carl Zeiss Jena EDF 7x40 (in East Germany developed, Docter/Noblex sells today 7x40 BGA without reticle, without laser and radiation protection, without "yellow cast") 1200 Euro. Only 70% "sweet spot" - but 100% tested (and certified) for real field use and not only flat field use. ;-)

Ah, yes, governments. When I picked up my first repairs for the Coast Guard in Seattle, I noticed half a pallet of Mk 28s, 32s, and 45s—with a few 37s and 41s thrown in for good measure. When I heard the lot was being taken to the landfill just south of Bremerton (PSNS), I informed the base commander that I had parts for each—some hermetically sealed since the ‘50s—in storage at Captain’s. I also told him that it would be more economical to refurbish the rugged, time-tested binoculars than to replace them with potentially inferior units. It did no good. The opto-intellectual wizards at the Pentagon had sealed their fate.

Further, I could write a book about all the military doesn’t know about their own gear.

Bill

 

[PeterPS]

Ah, yes, governments. When I picked up my first repairs for the Coast Guard in Seattle, I noticed half a pallet of Mk 28s, 32s, and 45s—with a few 37s and 41s thrown in for good measure.

Bill

Mk41s in good condition (or reconditioned by Cory) sell for 3000$ on the bay, I hope you were able to save a few of them....

 

[WJC]

Mk41s in good condition (or reconditioned by Cory) sell for 3000$ on the bay, I hope you were able to save a few of them....

'Couldn't. The government-owned the lot. When they decided they were going to the landfill, even freeing one from that fate would have meant years in prison.
Bill

 

[cycleguy]

This is a topic that comes up frequently here, with no consensus. The difficulty is that we are all different — the answer for me may not be correct for you. It depends on your vision and interests / obsessiveness as well. I would argue the diminishing returns for optical quality kick in much lower than $1000 for MOST people (this forum is NOT representative of most people!).

Thanks to the explosion of Chinese outsourced manufacturing, in terms of central (on axis) brightness / clarity / resolution, which is what normal non-optics-obsessed people care about, the gains start getting incremental after the $300-500 level. You have to really be serious about birding and/or optics to truly need anything beyond that.

My assessment after many years and many binoculars (these are VERY broad generalizations and implicitly focused on typical roof prisms used by birders):

• The biggest jump is from the cheap garbage (usually $100 or less) to the $200-300 binocular level (Vortex Dback, Nikon Monarch 5, many Chinese OEMs like Athlon, etc). A typical beginner or casual user will be perfectly fine here and 95%+ of normal humans will never need to go farther.
• There’s a decent sized jump in optics and build quality to the $400-600 mid tier level (Vortex Viper HD, Nikon Monarch 7, Meopta Meopro HD, etc). But beyond this diminishing returns really kick in for all but the most serious and/or well funded users.
• The jump to the “sub alpha” level ($800-1200, eg Zeiss Conquest HD, Nikon Monarch HG, Kowa Genesis, Leica Trinovid) is a decent sized bump in refinement, in both optics and build quality, that would be noticeable to a serious enthusiast. These are serious optics with top notch optics and excellent mechanical quality, but most casuals would be hard pressed to notice or care about the difference from the tier below. I view this as the Toyota vs Lexus level; the Toyota will do everything you need to do and for the vast majority of people it’s hard to justify the extra expense, but some people will appreciate and be willing to pay for the extra smoothness, refinement, and more luxurious finishing materials.
• Beyond the $1000 level the improvements get much, much smaller, and only a serious enthusiast or someone with a big budget really needs to go here. This is the best of the best, with even more optical refinement (that is difficult to notice for 99% of people), the leading edge of engineering and technology, and no expense spared on the luxury and quality of mechanicals and exterior finishing. The difference is there if you know what to look for, and if you’ve got the money go for it, but it’s hard to objectively argue that anyone NEEDS something that nice or expensive vs the tier below.

+1 What this guy said!

I was asking myself the same question this past week as I brought a Swaro EL home from the store with me.

I have a couple binoculars in the $450-$600 range that I could get along fine with.

I have a couple binoculars in the $800-$1050 range that I could get along fine with and consider them the sweet spot of value (money spent and what you get).

I have three that are considered alpha class (well yesterday's alpha class now that the Noctovid, NL, and SF are out) that I could get along fine with and am glad I get to experience the outdoors with them.

However, here is another way you can look at this:

I purchased a Swaro EL WB 10x32 that I used for ten years and finally sold as I wasn't holding 10x as steady as needed. They cost me $1500 and I sold them for $900. They cost me ($1500 - $900)/10 = $60 a year. Probably my best binocular value to date.

CG

 

[Jessie-66]

Which is why I have two Steiners (HX 8x42/Ranger Xtreme 8x32), a brand which for some arcane reasons is completely and utterly ignored here. The HX are in my Denali bino pack, the Rangers are in the truck. They may not be 'alphas', they may not have ED/HD/FL/Fairydust glass, they may not have the widest FOV (actually true this one), but they have an excellent clear view, sharp image with a large sweet spot, fast focus, those very clever little wings on the eyepieces and they are tough as old boots. And, according to Steiner, they are made in Germany. In my book that gives me a good bang for my buck.

In a big electronics store I looked at the series Steiner Ranger Extreme and Skyhawk 4.0 in 8x32 and 8/10x42. What are the main differences between cheap and expensive binoculars? Edge sharpness, field of view, mechanics/ergonomics, stray light and guaranteed usability in wide environmental conditions.
The Steiner binoculars of both (very similiar) series are ergonomically and mechanically very good for me (a bit bulky and heavy because of that), edge sharpness ~ 80 percent of the field of view radius, false light, veiling glare I could hardly check in the store with artifical neon light and without reference bins. But the "false light traps" (baffles against veiling glare) were complex, matt, not shiny (very dark gray to black). I like wide fields of view, threfore I use actual other bins. For an extreme hike or an extreme vacation as reliable (see operating temperatures) and at the same time inexpensive binoculars (loss by fall, crash or theft) I would recommend Steiner Ranger Extreme and buy them myself - they are not cheap but inexpensive.

off topic but not off topic to ignorance of Steiner's:
An Steiner's advertising was or is "Sports auto focus" with means focus on hyperfocal distance with depth of sharpness view from about 20 m to infinite for bins with low mags. Every low mag bins are so focusable, the company wanted to advertise its IF glasses with technical implicitness. Binoculars enthusiasts were "not amused". The advertising of many companies contains incomprehensible promises, colorful pictures, happy looking, paid actors - hardly measurable facts. If this would seriously disturb many consumers, the advertising would be different. Have fun, joy and interesting (extreme or active) holidays with your Steiner's.

Meopta Meostar, Meopta Meopro, Hawke Frontier EDX and APO, Zeiss Qonquest and Terra, Nikon Monarch 7, Nikon Monarch HG are also in the "sweet spot" of value for some people money bags and eyes. Kowa BDII 8x32 is not my eyes taste. Reports on Kowa Genesis and Kite Lynx (similiar to Nikon Monarch 7) and Birdwatcher (Porro 8x42) and Swarovski SLC are also good. None of them is perfect.

 

[WJC]

In a big electronics store I looked at the series Steiner Ranger Extreme and Skyhawk 4.0 in 8x32 and 8/10x42. What are the main differences between cheap and expensive binoculars? Edge sharpness, field of view, mechanics/ergonomics, stray light and guaranteed usability in wide environmental conditions.
The Steiner binoculars of both (very similiar) series are ergonomically and mechanically very good for me (a bit bulky and heavy because of that), edge sharpness ~ 80 percent of the field of view radius, false light, veiling glare I could hardly check in the store with artifical neon light and without reference bins. But the "false light traps" (baffles against veiling glare) were complex, matt, not shiny (very dark gray to black). I like wide fields of view, threfore I use actual other bins. For an extreme hike or an extreme vacation as reliable (see operating temperatures) and at the same time inexpensive binoculars (loss by fall, crash or theft) I would recommend Steiner Ranger Extreme and buy them myself - they are not cheap but inexpensive.

off topic but not off topic to ignorance of Steiner's:
An Steiner's advertising was or is "Sports auto focus" with means focus on hyperfocal distance with depth of sharpness view from about 20 m to infinite for bins with low mags. Every low mag bins are so focusable, the company wanted to advertise its IF glasses with technical implicitness. Binoculars enthusiasts were "not amused". The advertising of many companies contains incomprehensible promises, colorful pictures, happy looking, paid actors - hardly measurable facts. If this would seriously disturb many consumers, the advertising would be different. Have fun, joy and interesting (extreme or active) holidays with your Steiner's.

Many Steiners were coming from China long before they were bought by Beretta (2008) and started being imported by Burris. BINOCULARS: Fallacy & Fact pp 12-16

Bill

 

[Jessie-66]

Many Steiners were coming from China long before they were bought by Beretta (2008) and started being imported by Burris. BINOCULARS: Fallacy & Fact pp 12-16

Hi Bill, good to know.
I like your stories about your work. Do you still repair sometimes? Did your company repair roof prism binoculars during your active time? Best regards. Jessie.

 

[dries1]

Cycle guy, what model 7X42s do you currently have now.

Andy W.

 

[Mark9473]

The value sweet spot is the purchase after which you stop looking for an upgrade for several years to come - thus by definition entirely personal.
For me, in 10x42 that's my Zeiss HT which I bought new for £1300 (close-out promotion); in 15x60 it's my Docter Nobilem which were something like €800 or so. In 7x35 or 8x32 I'm not there yet.

 

[WJC]

Hi Bill, good to know.
I like your stories about your work. Do you still repair sometimes? Did your company repair roof prism binoculars during your active time? Best regards. Jessie.

Hi, Jessie,

Thanks for your kind comment.

The PDF that MIGHT have been attached WOULD HAVE explained what I had intended to do. It was apparently too large.

“Roof prism binoculars”? Another photo illustrates that if it had glass in it, we repaired, restored, calibrated, or collimated it. In the 1993 photo (attached) you see several binoculars, three 18th century telescopes, an early 20th century National Park Service binocular, 2 Navy Big Eyes, a 7-inch Maksutov, 4 sextants, and numerous other optical devices. That gray thing on the wall behind Cory Suddarth’s head was our Mk 5 collimator. We mounted it on the wall so as to take up less floor space.

Things didn’t work out as I had planned. I went to Seattle in early June to buy my old Mk 5 collimator so that I could do the work some others only claim to be able to do. The second part of the business WAS to buy binos on eBay, refurbish and collimate and then resell them. The first thing I found was that the military installations in my area had turned to the disposable economy and were no longer wanting their optical gear repaired and/or collimated.

In order to test the water for profitability, I ordered 7 binoculars from eBay. One was pristine. FIVE had broken or missing parts. A SIXTH had all the parts—and was virtually collimated—but every surface of every prism was coated with a fine layer of dust. Could I have done the work? In my sleep. But I would have lost my shirt doing so.

Thus, from now on, I’m just going to repair what I have in my care and try to sell those. When you pay for the bino, the tax, the shipping, the Ebay fee, the PayPal fee, and spend time corresponding with the customer, you would have to buy something for $15 and sell it for $150 for even a chance at making ANY profit.

Now then, tell me about yourself. PLEASE US MY EMAIL ADDRESS: [email protected]

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Jessie-66]

Bill, I have great respect for your work and texts and would like to visit your workshop - because your photo. I respect and appreciate the scent with work and the smell that comes with it. I would very much like to see your workshop, put on my glasses, look closely, talk to you, ask questions, appreciate the experiences of others, more experienced, older people. I don't want to reveal my private life, something I have written here, that should be enough: https://www.birdforum.net/threads/r...er-apo-10x42-vs-nikon-monarch-hg-8x42.402273/
We read our texts in the forum. I do not like , I don't read ends or parts of threads that become too much off topic. ;-) Jessie.

 

[cycleguy]

E

Cycle guy, what model 7X42s do you currently have now.

Andy W.

EDG & UVHD+

CG

 

[dries1]

Thanks Cycleguy, two of the best if not the best. Good to see you around here again, you have sampled many a glass.

Andy W.

 

[NDhunter]

Which is why I have two Steiners (HX 8x42/Ranger Xtreme 8x32), a brand which for some arcane reasons is completely and utterly ignored here. The HX are in my Denali bino pack, the Rangers are in the truck. They may not be 'alphas', they may not have ED/HD/FL/Fairydust glass, they may not have the widest FOV (actually true this one), but they have an excellent clear view, sharp image with a large sweet spot, fast focus, those very clever little wings on the eyepieces and they are tough as old boots. And, according to Steiner, they are made in Germany. In my book that gives me a good bang for my buck.

And you can be assured those Steiners are not made in Germany.

 

[cycleguy]

Thanks Cycleguy, two of the best if not the best. Good to see you around here again, you have sampled many a glass.

Andy W.

Thanks Andy. Yes, disappeared for a long while but see all here is as I last remember it. Think I have learned to enjoy binoculars for what they are and the views they provide without getting caught up in all the review, talk, and hype (aka - nitpicking). Besides, my eyes aren't what they used to be so I'm not as particular. I seem to get along better this way.

CG

 

[Patudo]

20 years ago I probably wouldn’t notice the difference between a $500 binocular and a $1500 binocular but now I can, in large part due to this forum and learning how to spot optical aberrations.

Alas, I am the same, except that it took me less than half the time james did to become a nitnoid. I sometimes wish I had never learned to appreciate the differences between the merely good and the truly excellent. My wallet would have thanked me hugely...

 

[sidpost]

Interesting, I was expecting to see numbers in the $600-$800 range in that you can spend a lot more but you won't get a lot more. I've personally never looked through alphas.

A lot depends on where you live in addition to your eyes. For example, the EU has VAT but, the USA tends to have higher margins on the same binoculars. On used binoculars, you get a lot more for your money on average in the EU versus the USA.

Where the value difference falls off also depends on your eyes.

• How sensitive are your eyes to different lens coatings?
• How good is your eyesight?
• Do your eyes dilate wide open?
• Do you have yellowing corneas?
• Do you have the start of cataracts?
• What do you expect from your binoculars?
  • Sealed from rain?
  • Fungus free in high humidity?
  • What is your price range, as people in China for example have different expectations than people in Europe excluding the wealthy and privileged classes?

Almost any binocular with an HD lens is the first big difference in image quality. After that prisms and other issues start to matter more. What price point this really depends on where you live and where you shop, as noted above my USD ($) tends to go farther on average in Europe than in the USA.