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Unfamiliar Egrets and Waders (Tokyo, Japan) (2 Viewers)

Hello,

I'm a UK birder currently in Japan and quite unfamiliar with some of species (including common) ones here, having not had as much time to research prior to coming as I would have ideally liked.

I'm getting stuck on Intermediate Egret vs Great White Egret particularly. Could anyone confirm if the below (left, foreground) is indeed an Intermediate Egret and Great White on the right as I suspect?
373004277_964470514635540_5393641269876583509_n (1).jpg372221743_258925870380683_1610153772909370142_n.jpg

And, I believe the below are images of Grey Tailed Tattler (with Eastern Spot Billed Duck). Could this be confirmed?

373472426_330527646005070_6947113323805398069_n.jpg373459298_293213983320223_4464466785904235595_n.jpg

Thanks in advance for the help. I have used photo ID apps but these have been inconclusive.

James.
 
Welcome to Bird Forum James Cannon.

Intermediate Egret is a summer bird in Japan, and despite the temperatures, summer is technically over. Your first photo shows a Little Egret (background) with a Great White. The second photo shows a Great White. The line under the eye going behind the eye is the defining feature, though with individual birds it can sometimes be difficult to see depending on the angle of the shot and whether the face has been in water just before (which affects the light).

Japan has both sub-species of Great White - modesta which yours are (and which vary a bit in size anyway) and alba which doesn't breed (I think) but is increasingly common in winter (and when next to modesta in most poses is obviously larger and taller) - I think they should be split (they often fight in Japan).

Yes, Grey-tailed Tattler is very common in Japan. I like your last shot with the Spot-billed looking at you with a doubtful face and the Tattler trying to pretend it's not there at all.
 
The other generally helpful way to separate Intermediate and Great is their neck - only Great shows a distinct kink in the middle (most of the time), whereas Intermediate has a smooth curve.
TBH, your first shot (of a Great) actually shows a smooth curve, too, so it's not foolproof, but can help if the gape is indistinct.

The crown of their heads is also different, dome versus rounded, but I can never remember which is which, so that does me no good.
 
Welcome to Bird Forum James Cannon.

Intermediate Egret is a summer bird in Japan, and despite the temperatures, summer is technically over. Your first photo shows a Little Egret (background) with a Great White. The second photo shows a Great White. The line under the eye going behind the eye is the defining feature, though with individual birds it can sometimes be difficult to see depending on the angle of the shot and whether the face has been in water just before (which affects the light).

Japan has both sub-species of Great White - modesta which yours are (and which vary a bit in size anyway) and alba which doesn't breed (I think) but is increasingly common in winter (and when next to modesta in most poses is obviously larger and taller) - I think they should be split (they often fight in Japan).

Yes, Grey-tailed Tattler is very common in Japan. I like your last shot with the Spot-billed looking at you with a doubtful face and the Tattler trying to pretend it's not there at all.

Thank you for this informative reply.

I now see why I was confused, as the Great White Egret's here pictured were smaller than those I see in the UK (leading me to suspect Intermediate Egret), so must be due to differences in sub-species.

Shame I wasn't able to get Intermediate Egret before end of summer.
 
the Great White Egret's here pictured were smaller than those I see in the UK
Probably just your imagination. Judging the size of a lone bird is notoriously unreliable - and there's no way to have a useful comparative field standard to assess birds on opposite sides of the globe.
Size is terribly difficult to assess in general, and perhaps especially so in herons when their postures can change so dramatically. There may be occasional moments when intermediate egret and great egret will stand immediately alongside each other with identical postures and degrees of feather-ruffling (etc), but in general I've never found size useful in separating them - it's all in head shape, bill shape/size and gape pattern.
 
Probably just your imagination. Judging the size of a lone bird is notoriously unreliable - and there's no way to have a useful comparative field standard to assess birds on opposite sides of the globe.
This is, of course, correct.
Size is terribly difficult to assess in general, and perhaps especially so in herons when their postures can change so dramatically. There may be occasional moments when intermediate egret and great egret will stand immediately alongside each other with identical postures and degrees of feather-ruffling (etc), but in general I've never found size useful in separating them - it's all in head shape, bill shape/size and gape pattern.
In the case of Great White Egret, this would be correct for alba or modesta compared with each other or with intermediate from different areas, I assume, though it is surely possible that there is a regional or climatological difference in size above and beyond individual variation. However, if James is used to seeing alba, and then saw modesta in Japan, then I think he might have a point because even without the comparator directly available, and just from memory, modesta would appear obviously smaller.

The attached photo below from my local regular patch near my house in Nara, Japan, shows two modesta and an alba in early December (zoom-ins of the gape and eye attached for doubters that these are all A. alba). Visual difference - yellow tibia on alba, and black/blue tibia on modesta (I also think that there are other things) - but when you look at the size, there is no way that the difference in appearance is simply due to posture or angle of view - although even I think that these modesta may be rather small and the alba rather large for their respective ssp.

I think Ardea alba alba and Ardea alba modesta should be split in that they are visually different on size and colouring (and as I said above, fight each other fairly often when in the same spot as in Japan in winter). Also, modesta breed here in Japan, but alba is not here in the summer.

I've said the same thing in several threads over the years on BF. I don't understand why, with all the keen-ness to split things these days that this is not more debated. But I'm just a hobby birder, and if there is nothing the professionals want to do, then...

My experience of these is almost entirely in Japan, so if people see it differently from a perspective from another country, then please comment.

211209018 Nara Ponds.JPG211209018AB Nara Ponds.jpg211209018 AA Nara Ponds.jpg
 
Interesting, i completely missed the debate about splitting east from western GWE.
Are you positive the big one is an alba, the others modesta?
I need to read up on my japanese herons, that is certain.

Thanks
Gerben
 
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This is, of course, correct.

In the case of Great White Egret, this would be correct for alba or modesta compared with each other or with intermediate from different areas, I assume, though it is surely possible that there is a regional or climatological difference in size above and beyond individual variation. However, if James is used to seeing alba, and then saw modesta in Japan, then I think he might have a point because even without the comparator directly available, and just from memory, modesta would appear obviously smaller.

The attached photo below from my local regular patch near my house in Nara, Japan, shows two modesta and an alba in early December (zoom-ins of the gape and eye attached for doubters that these are all A. alba). Visual difference - yellow tibia on alba, and black/blue tibia on modesta (I also think that there are other things) - but when you look at the size, there is no way that the difference in appearance is simply due to posture or angle of view - although even I think that these modesta may be rather small and the alba rather large for their respective ssp.

I think Ardea alba alba and Ardea alba modesta should be split in that they are visually different on size and colouring (and as I said above, fight each other fairly often when in the same spot as in Japan in winter). Also, modesta breed here in Japan, but alba is not here in the summer.

I've said the same thing in several threads over the years on BF. I don't understand why, with all the keen-ness to split things these days that this is not more debated. But I'm just a hobby birder, and if there is nothing the professionals want to do, then...

My experience of these is almost entirely in Japan, so if people see it differently from a perspective from another country, then please comment.

View attachment 1530320View attachment 1530322View attachment 1530323

Although the differences may be apparent to you in Japan, it's important to bear in mind that this may not be the case throughout the entire range. Great Egret is a very widespread species and a decision to split should preferably be based on consideration of the entire range. I think there is some evidence that modesta and alba interbreed in South Asia, for example, and it is unclear whether differences in bare part coloration are consistent throughout the range.

A few years ago, modesta was actually split as Eastern Great Egret, based partly on DNA evidence. However, the observed difference was between modesta from Australia and egretta from North America and it wasn't clear whether alba (from Palearctic) and melanorhynchos (from Africa) should be grouped with egretta, with modesta or as separate species. The species as a whole was lumped again until this was resolved, and as far as I am aware there is no published literature since. There's a chance that the species could be split in future, but until the research is done, the uncertainty about species limits remains.
 
James is used to seeing alba, and then saw modesta in Japan, then I think he might have a point because even without the comparator directly available, and just from memory, modesta would appear obviously smaller.
Whatever the reason, (imagination/environmental context/genuine differences between subspecies or individual birds) this was certainly the case to my eyes. I had very close views of modesta (it seems) here and equally have had very close views of alba in the UK very recently before arriving to Japan, and to my eyes the difference in size was very apparent (hence the intermediate egret confusion).

Certainly been an an interesting learning curve with egrets for me! Appreciate the info.
 
Whatever the reason, (imagination/environmental context/genuine differences between subspecies or individual birds) this was certainly the case to my eyes. I had very close views of modesta (it seems) here and equally have had very close views of alba in the UK very recently before arriving to Japan, and to my eyes the difference in size was very apparent (hence the intermediate egret confusion).

Certainly been an an interesting learning curve with egrets for me! Appreciate the info.

I am adding some further comments and photos just to complete the thread, or at least make it more information-rich.

===

Preface: I said in my original reply to James that Intermediate is a summer bird and summer is over. What I should have said is that in May/June/July they are around and breeding, and I don't see them later, but in September we still get a few (and locally a lot) of migrating individuals from further north - so, if it seemed that my comment suggested he couldn't have seen Intermediate last week, then I apologise.

===

The Japanese for these birds translates as 'Big Egret', 'Medium Egret' and 'Little Egret'. (I translate as 'Medium' because 'Intermediate' seems to more directly reference the bigger and smaller versions than the Japanese does.)

In my area, at least, if necessary when both are present, among birders alba is 'Big Big Egret' and modesta is 'Medium Big Egret'. As I said above, alba has become increasingly common in winter in recent years and where it was once something to get excited about, it no longer is particularly special.

Referring back to Butty's important point in #6, in our area, difficulty in judging an individual bird by size arises as a problem with differentiation between modesta Great and Intermediate in the summer, and this is when the 'eyeline test' is useful; alba is so much bigger than Intermediate that it would not be a problem.

I attach a few photos to illustrate.

Photos 1 and 2 show two Intermediates with a modesta Great.

Points to note:

The 'kink in the neck' theory of differentiation doesn't hold - both species can do both, although perhaps not as often as each other.

In the field at a certain season, the size difference, as Butty correctly says, is not apparent when only one species is present (and even then, crouching and general posture, especially when the birds are far away, can cause problems).

Photo 3 shows modesta Great on the left, Grey Heron in the centre and Intermediate on the right. Photos 4 and 5 show the eyline of the Great and Intermediate.

Points to note:

Mark Brazil's 'Birds of East Asia' says that modesta is slightly smaller than Grey Heron, and alba is slightly bigger, in general. This seems reasonable. The Grey in this photo is several metres in the background and the modesta in the front.

Again, the kink in the neck theory doesn't hold, as the bird on the right is Intermediate.

Looking at photos 4 and 5, even the eyeline can be difficult to use, as I said in my first post in this thread. While the Intermediate is obvious, the eyeline of the modesta Great is not so evident on this individual, because of wind/water or whatever, so if we saw just this bird it might not be evident which it was of Great or Intermediate. But with the larger picture available, we can make these judgements.

This post isn't challenging or supporting any other posts; I simply hope it provides some food for thought.

===

Postscript

I'd like to thank John Allcock for his post #9. Over the years, he has helped me a lot through his posts from near but not-the-same HK

210912005 Saraike.JPG210912006 Saraike.JPG201022011A Nara Ponds.jpg201022011B Nara Ponds.jpg201022011C Nara Ponds.jpg
 
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So... the kink in the neck theory doesn't hold. But if you see a bird with a round neck isn't it intermediate?

Define, or show shots of, 'round'. Do my photos 1 and 2 show round or kink? Does James' photo 2?

I think that if you can use the 'roundness' of the neck to ID Intermediate, then other features - size, location, season - will already have told you what it is.

In my area, another problem with trying to identify distant egrets by neckshape is that Cattle Egrets (most of which have little or no orange feathering) show up at the same time as Intermediate (and breed also).

210911032 Saraike.JPG
 
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I don't think it's necessary to get into an argument about a small detail. All I was trying to do was to agree with Butty's much earlier point that even commonly accepted points can be misleading or even 'wrong'.
 
I don't think it's necessary to get into an argument about a small detail. All I was trying to do was to agree with Butty's much earlier point that even commonly accepted points can be misleading or even 'wrong'.
Yes. I'm just wondering what one might salvage. I've certainly seen intermediate egret which were without kink (with great nearby)
 
You can salvage the Intermediate's more rounded head, too. And observe a kink even when the neck is outstretched. (Apologies for over-sized images; dunno why that happened.)

Intermediate Egret 1d-denoise.JPGGreat Egret 62d-denoise.JPG
 
Well here's what I put into Opus. By all means edit it if you disagree:

Most similar to Great Egret, especially in parts of south-east asia. Intermediate differs as follow:

smaller, daintier, more graceful extended head and neck about equal to body length
head is rounder
bill shorter and deeper. The shorter bill also gives Intermediate's head a more triangular look than the attenuated snake-like head of Great Egret.
line of gape extends to just below eye (Great Egret's extends well past it)
feathered chin of Intermediate extends farther forward along the gonys-spot
(intermediate frequently had a less pronounced neck kink than Great. However, this character is not failsafe: an egret without a link is likely Intermediate but one with one may not be Great)
 
I've certainly seen intermediate egret which were without kink (with great nearby)
So have I. And Great without much of a kink, as shown in some of my photos.

I'm afraid that I don't see what your point is in this and your previous post.

As I have said several times, I think Great Egret alba and Great Egret modesta are very different. And modesta and Intermediate are more similar visually than modesta and alba (except for the gape line - usually). And I have said that I think they should be split. And John Allcock has explained why I am wrong-ish.

So, the Opus comparing these two species without this modesta-alba differentiation is pointless in my opinion.

If I were you, I would simply delete the 'Similar species' section for Intermediate that you have posted, or just replace it with 'Great Egret subspecies modesta in East Asia can be similar, although it has a gapeline which goes behind the eye, unlike Intermediate.'

With respect for the efforts of all the staff at Bird Forum, I can't imagine anyone using Opus as a main source for species ID, so I don't think you need to be excessively precise.
 
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