See BBC news article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22583431
Is this really a first for NI/ROI?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22583431
Is this really a first for NI/ROI?
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Tawny Owl in Northern Ireland (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andy1979
- Start date
paul moore
Well-known member
Yes, more info here http://nibirds.blogspot.ie/ , just a couple of known escapes in the RoI over the years.
Paul
Paul
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Big twitch for NI birders then..... do RoI birders cross the border into the UK?
John
John
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
Yes people from the Republic Of Ireland are allowed to cross the border.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
I'm sorry, I was insufficiently precise. I wondered whether the foreign birders who seem baffled by the arrival of British twitchers at their rarity sites ever cross into the UK to tick off foreign birds.
Hope that defines the question better.
Cheers
John
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
Most RoI birders that would tick the tawny owl would put it on their Irish List since the bird is in Ireland.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Is it? I admit I can't tell one county from another over there. I thought Down was in Ulster and hence the UK, not Ireland, my mistake. Luckily its all British Isles.
John
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
Co. Down is in Ulster which is in the Island of Ireland. That is why Irish Birders would tick it as an Irish bird. The fact that Co. Down is part of the UK is irrelevant. Republic of Ireland is not part of the British Isles
MJB
Well-known member
The Times Atlas would disagree with you... It's a geographic, not a political term, although you're welcome to put the case for a change of perception!
One thought, if UKIP influences the UKr government to pull out of the EC, we could have in future Scotland and the Republic of Ireland in the EU and UKr outside it, with possibly border controls returning...:eek!:
What would happen to the various current bird tick lists?
MJB
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
The Times Atlas would disagree with you... It's a geographic, not a political term, although you're welcome to put the case for a change of perception!
One thought, if UKIP influences the UKr government to pull out of the EC, we could have in future Scotland and the Republic of Ireland in the EU and UKr outside it, with possibly border controls returning...:eek!:
What would happen to the various current bird tick lists?
MJB
The Irish Goverment doesn't recognise the term nor do any Irish people I know. If the Times Altas uses the term "British Isles" that's their business, but it is an outdated term.
As for Bird list it's up to the individual I guess. If Scotland breaks away from the UK, people might still have a British list or they might break it up into a English and Scottish list.
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Sentence one is incorrect...
Co. Down is in Ulster which is on the island of Ireland. Use of a capital letter could be understood to imply something.
Sentence two is incorrect...
Because it is!
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As about as outdated as using the term 'the Irish Sea' to define the water that separates the two nations.
Don't see too many British jumping up and down about the use this, so why so sensitive about another geographical term that is widely and internationally recognised?
James Lowther
Well-known member
still - the idea that Ulster is not in Ireland is equally incorrect.
Quite agree, so to conclude:
1. It is in Ireland
2. It is in the United Kingdom
3. It is in the British Isles
All that said, it is a pretty remarkable record for a species so infrequently undertaking water crossings, surely there must be a possibility of escape? Is the species common in captivity - always seems to be Eagle Owls that escape!
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
"British Isles" implies that the people of Republic of Ireland are British, which they are not. The term is from the colonial era and as such is irrelevant.
Does the Irish Sea imply it belongs to the Irish?
Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
It's a tough one Jos.
The track record to my knowledge (which could easily be wrong), is that previous records are escapes. There were even rumours that in the past some may have released a couple of birds deliberately in they hopes that they would breed.
There is a good pro and con summary on the nibirds blog here.
http://nibirds.blogspot.ie/2013/05/tawny-owl-food-for-thought.html
I wonder would isotope analysis on the dead tawny (or this one if it could be managed) be region specific enough to determine if it came from Britain/further afield or bred in Ireland.
If it did cross, bare in mind that the crossing between Northern Ireland and Scotland is the narrowest there is between the two countries. Which has got to help
.Would be nice if stuff like this was doing its best to colonize, like Great Spotted Woodpeckers seem to have done. Nuthatch next?
As for the old it is Ireland/It isn't Ireland stuff.
Details of the current Irish constitution are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Previously the Republic's constitution maintained a territorial claim on the North. An amendment was adopted in 1999, which removes the concept of "territory" and basically leaves the door open for the North to Re-unify with the rest of us should they someday choose to.
The concept of a common Identity is now used. (for example all 32 counties take part in the national games of Hurling and Gaelic Football etc). Basically, a rose by any other name.
Most birders basically work within the confines of the Island of Ireland as a whole.
Tiocfaidh ár lá
Owen
Farnboro John
Well-known member
So is North America, which includes Canada, a colonial and irrelevant term?
You're clutching at straws dear boy.
When Scotland is independent, Wales is independent, Eire is independent and Northern Ireland hangs grimly onto its British identity, the archipelago will still be the British Isles.
And I think you will find that more and more birders faced with the choice of scything off all their British ticks seen in Scotland and Wales or finding a new geographical concept, will opt for a British Isles list.
John
Mayo Corncrake
Well-known member
Was Canada ever a colony of the USA? No it wasn't. That's the difference, boy. Ireland was a colony and that is why most Irish people do not like the term "British Isles".
I couldn't care less what lists people keep. As I said:
"As for Bird list it's up to the individual I guess. If Scotland breaks away from the UK, people might still have a British list or they might break it up into a English and Scottish list."
James Lowther
Well-known member
i'm struggling to decide which of the two opposing viewpoints currently presented is less persuasive
any of my fellow inhabitants of these islands who would like to take care not to needlessly irritate your neighbours across the sea might care to read the following precis to understand the perspectives of the opposite side
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
for the irish please note:-
"In Britain [the British Isles] is commonly understood as being a politically neutral geographical term"
for my fellow brits
"From the Irish perspective, the term "British" had never applied to Ireland until at least the late 16th century and onwards. This period coincided with the Tudor conquest of Ireland...... From that perspective, the term "British Isles" is not a neutral geographical term but an unavoidably political one. Use of the name "British Isles" is often rejected in ..Ireland, because its use implies a primacy of British identity over all the islands"
personally i'd be happy to reject the term for reasons of good neighbourly relationships but will use it unapologetically and without any hidden intention until a suitable alternative is established.
as for lists, everyone can do what they like, just don't expect it to go down well if you travel to county cork for a "british tick"
cheers,
James
any of my fellow inhabitants of these islands who would like to take care not to needlessly irritate your neighbours across the sea might care to read the following precis to understand the perspectives of the opposite side
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute
for the irish please note:-
"In Britain [the British Isles] is commonly understood as being a politically neutral geographical term"
for my fellow brits
"From the Irish perspective, the term "British" had never applied to Ireland until at least the late 16th century and onwards. This period coincided with the Tudor conquest of Ireland...... From that perspective, the term "British Isles" is not a neutral geographical term but an unavoidably political one. Use of the name "British Isles" is often rejected in ..Ireland, because its use implies a primacy of British identity over all the islands"
personally i'd be happy to reject the term for reasons of good neighbourly relationships but will use it unapologetically and without any hidden intention until a suitable alternative is established.
as for lists, everyone can do what they like, just don't expect it to go down well if you travel to county cork for a "british tick"
cheers,
James
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