Schedule 1 birds. When to keep quiet. (1 Viewer)

[Mannix]

Hi folks. I am continuing this discussion which started as a quite heated debate on a different part of the forum. The gist of the discussion started when somone on that forum mentioned an area where they had seen Woodlarks. The area they mentioned was a very big area, and when some people chastised the member for mentioning it, I jumped in with both feet and backed up this member, and then it all got a bit silly.
After speaking to a friend of mine who is very knowledgeable, I accepted that maybe they were right to not want the place mentioning. He told me that if an egg collector or other person who would willingly disturb birds went to the area and saw some people with scopes, it would be only a case of saying "have you seen any Woodlarks about mate?" and sooner or later someone would tell them the exact location. Also, if people were making a track to the site, through grass or undergrowth for instance, that this would be an ideal track for a fox to use too.
Now this information threw up a few more questions for me. The reason for this is that we often see people saying "PM me if you want to know where they are" and passing the info on to their mates or people they know. My question is, can we say for certain that our mate's, mate's, mate's, mate's, mate's, mate, is as trustworthy as our original mate? because surely since you tell one of your mates then it's likely that they will tell theirs. And if each mate and mate's mate treads a path to the birds, are they not going to create the path for the fox to follow?
I guess what I'm saying is that if we all have the birds welfare at heart (and I'm sure we do) then is it not better to tell no one and even to go as far as not trying to see these birds ourselves when nesting unless it is from somewhere where the public will be going in droves anyway?
Some of us may think we are really careful when looking at birds, but could we be sending the fox (and humans if tracks are made) to the birds whatever we do?
The person I am speaking of had a rare bird nesting near to where they live, and didn't go to see it once. Maybe this is what we all ought to do?
What do you think?

 

[Trystan]

Hi Mannix,

I'm full of conflicting thoughts on this one. As you know, I benefitted from information received about these birds and so it would be very hypocritical to say it's wrong to tell people.

On the other hand, the birds welfare is the number one priority. Perhaps you tell the mate you trust because you also trust him to make the correct call on who he would pass the information to.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one TBH.

 

[Tideliner]

The simple answer is keep all breeding schedule 1 species quiet unless it is in a well protected and wardened site that is already in the public domain and can be safely watched from a distance. After all a year or life tick is not worth the risk of birds deserting or attracting a egg collector or predator. You can always hope to see the birds somewhere else another day in the future.

Birds come first , watching them second every time with no exceptions. Rember the attraction of large numbers of bird watchers to a site may well have a knock on effect on other breeding species. Your woodlarks may well have goshawks , nightjar , woodcock and so on breeding in the same habitat.

 

[Mannix]

Just to clarify. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers or accuse anyone of anything with this post, just trying to sort out the rights and wrongs for my own sake.

 

[Mysticete]

Is egg collecting still a major issue in Europe? I have never heard of anyone stateside worrying about egg collecting, although I suppose in some parts of the country falconers are a problem.

 

[Ben M]

I'm also keen to hear what others think on this subject - thanks for raising it.

Reposting what I posted elsewhere:

Just because a site is "well known", doesn't give anyone the right to keep broadcasting it on a public forum. Many well known breeding sites hold fragile breeding populations, which may be being impacted by increased visitation in the breeding period due to locations being broadcast online. These may have been withheld from county bird reports for several years due to declines.

The species are schedule 1 for a good reason - typically because they're at risk in some respect. Report your records to the relevant recording body, and let them make the informed decision on publication via the appropriate (and controlled) method of dissemination.

 

[Ben M]

Is egg collecting still a major issue in Europe? I have never heard of anyone stateside worrying about egg collecting, although I suppose in some parts of the country falconers are a problem.

I'm by no means an expert on this, but from what I have read in the last two years (BBC news and county bird reports), then it is still a problem in the UK, albeit not as widespread as it was in the past.

 

[Pete Mella]

It really is a tough one sometimes isn't it? We've all passed information on to people we know, and received information from others, about S1 species, probably more than we should have. And as you say you may trust your mate, but can their mates be trusted, etc.

The first obvious point is don't discuss the species on an open forum, and I think that includes vague posts hinting people should PM them for details.

The exceptions are some occasions where it's already publicised BY A RESPONSIBLE AGENCY. If, say, a rare bird was breeding at a big, well-wardened nature reserve, and they were putting out releases about this, there'd be very little point not discussing it. Equally a local bird group may publicise certain sites for species such as Goshawk or Nightjar, where there's little or no chance of disturbance to breeding birds (or in the case of Gos, actual identification of nest sites), but it may channel yearlisters into a certain safe spot to stop people tramping recklessly around all suitable habitat trying to find them.

This is different to publicising something just because other birders are discussing it on a forum somewhere. There are some very well-known "secrets" in the S. Yorks area, but it doesn't mean I'd discuss it openly on here. I think the bottom line is not to make these calls yourselves - follow the lead of your local bird clubs. If they're putting sightings up on their website, it's probably fine, but if records of these species aren't appearing, follow suit. And even if they are publicising them, if you disagree with their judgement here, keep schtum.

As for telling friends - like I say, perhaps we all shouldn't do it as much as we do. It's human nature to want to share things with your mates, and think the best of them, both in their conduct in the field, and who they'll then pass info to. And it's also human nature to want to get that information yourself.

It's also frustrating when the birds don't exactly hide themselves - some birds are hardly difficult to find if you know the song, as they can be clearly heard from busy, main paths! If a birder stopped me at a well-used site such as a nature reserve, and already knew a species was there, then unless it was a very sensitive species (such as a persecuted raptor) or an actual nest, and as long as they can be viewed from a safe distance, I'd probably point them in the general right direction (although maybe not the exact spot), if it was only a case of them wandering around until they heard them. However, I wouldn't stop them and go "Hey! There's a x up that path!".

But at the end of the day we have to think very hard about how we spread info. The ideal situation would be no-one ever tells anyone anything, but I'm not sure anyone would want that situation. So I think I'd say the rules I'd follow are.

1. Always be responsible in your behaviour in the field, and in what you do with information. It has been given to you on trust, so treat that trust with respect. Even with information, if you think you can only see the species with disturbance don't go - there'll be other chances to see the species. Birdwatchers should be ambassadors for bird welfare, and be part of the solution, not the problem.

2. Don't spread clues you know about something that you're not able to tell people about. Socially it's very hard to tell someone to their face "I'm not telling you", and you may give in against your better judgement...

3...but saying that don't be afraid to. If you don't trust someone, it's better to piss someone off than risk the bird's welfare. But follow point two as much as possible to prevent this!

4. If there are species you know are particularly vulnerable to persecution (eg Gos in the Peak District) don't tell anyone at all (bar local recorders).

5. If in doubt, don't say anything to anyone.

Remember Schedule 1 isn't a guideline, it's a law, and those being reckless on sensitive sites can be prosecuted.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm guilty of not following some of these in the past, and people will probably be able to dredge up a host of hypocritical posts if they search hard enough!

 

[walshey]

This is a difficult issue I think partly because the Schedule 1 list is such a blunt piece of legislation. It must be quite annoying if you work in the field of bird protection and had one policy that governed your reactions to news of nesting Kingfishers and Serins - to take two examples. I'm sure organisations like the RSPB will have their own internal policies to follow for the different species.

This is why I think as birders we're forced to follow our own rules sometimes, and why there's so much debate about it. We all know what to do if you're lucky enough to find a Gos nesting, keep it quiet, maybe tell the CR/RSPB. Something like a Woodlark is a different matter entirely, you know if you visit suitable habitat in their range, it's not a massive shock if you find them is it? Shouldn't really need directions anyway, but if you want them, they're in county bird reports. These are read by both birders and I'm sure, those who would do birds harm.


John

 

[chris butterworth]

It's a sad fact that the majority of sites for regularly breeding scarce and rare birds in Britain are already known by egg collectors. Having said that I'm not advocating broadcasting exact sites to all and sundry. I'd go along with Pete Mella's 5 points, they seem to cover the problem of "supression".

Chris

By the way we aren't forced, on pain of death, to reveal the whereabouts of any bird to anyone, so don't worry about upsetting someone.

C

 

[Mannix]

Some good advice from Pete. Can I run an example by you to get some feedback. Let's suppose that I know Goshawks are nesting on some private land which has people patrolling it day and night and that occasionally you can see these birds flying if you stand on a public road nowhere near to the nest. Is it ok to say you saw these birds given that no one would be able to get anywhere near the nest and give other birders a chance to see them, or is this still something we should keep quiet?
I'm guessing the reply would be to always err on the side of caution and say nothing, which would make the most sense.

 

[Pete Mella]

Some good advice from Pete. Can I run an example by you to get some feedback. Let's suppose that I know Goshawks are nesting on some private land which has people patrolling it day and night and that occasionally you can see these birds flying if you stand on a public road nowhere near to the nest. Is it ok to say you saw these birds given that no one would be able to get anywhere near the nest and give other birders a chance to see them, or is this still something we should keep quiet?
I'm guessing the reply would be to always err on the side of caution and say nothing, which would make the most sense.

With Gos you don't take any chances at all. It's not just disturbance from clumsy birders and photographers that they have to contend with; there's people who want them dead and will go to staggering lengths to kill them.

The sad thing is that these people tend to know where these birds are better than the birders do, but it's still not worth the risk. If you see a Goshawk outside the very well-known raptor viewpoints, anywhere close to the breeding season (and outside just to be safe), keep the location to yourself.

If you want to know why see this document. http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/PeakMalpractice_tcm9-132666.pdf

Remember, even very well-behaved birders staying a good distance can draw a lot of attention simply by pointing a scope at a tree. Now imagine that scope was a rifle...

 

[captaincarot]

With Gos you don't take any chances at all. It's not just disturbance from clumsy birders and photographers that they have to contend with; there's people who want them dead and will go to staggering lengths to kill them.

The sad thing is that these people tend to know where these birds are better than the birders do, but it's still not worth the risk. If you see a Goshawk outside the very well-known raptor viewpoints, anywhere close to the breeding season (and outside just to be safe), keep the location to yourself.

If you want to know why see this document. http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/PeakMalpractice_tcm9-132666.pdf

Remember, even very well-behaved birders staying a good distance can draw a lot of attention simply by pointing a scope at a tree. Now imagine that scope was a rifle...

in the casxe of gos then these are the people we have to deal with

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-13041097

 

[Mannix]

Two very informative links, thanks, read and understood.

 

[Julian Thomas]

Is egg collecting still a major issue in Europe? I have never heard of anyone stateside worrying about egg collecting, although I suppose in some parts of the country falconers are a problem.

Hi Mysticete,
Like Ben M says, it's not so much of a problem as it was, but there are still isolated groups of really hardcore eggers in the southwest of England at least. So we still have to be far more careful than we would like. We'd love to be able to do things like marking roost trees for notable species, but it's just not an option in Britain. Not sure how much of an issue it is in the rest of Europe, though.

 

[njlarsen]

It's also frustrating when the birds don't exactly hide themselves - some birds are hardly difficult to find if you know the song, as they can be clearly heard from busy, main paths! If a birder stopped me at a well-used site such as a nature reserve, and already knew a species was there, then unless it was a very sensitive species (such as a persecuted raptor) or an actual nest, and as long as they can be viewed from a safe distance, I'd probably point them in the general right direction (although maybe not the exact spot), if it was only a case of them wandering around until they heard them. However, I wouldn't stop them and go "Hey! There's a x up that path!".

This is one place where I do not understand the British insistence that a bird has to be seen. If you can hear and recognize a birds song, then it is in your head and you should count it! Anything less is to endanger rare species as we are hearing again and again in this thread.

Niels

 

[Mannix]

Good point njlarsen, I know that a lot of people do count a bird which is heard but not seen. Therefore, in the case of a sensitive bird, if it is heard then should that be enough for the birder? Are we being a bit too greedy if we then attempt to see it?

 

[Marcus Conway - ebirder]

Just last night there was a prize idiot giving out directions to a Capercaillie lek and giving advice to visit in the early mornings - this was on the highlands thread.

 

[Mannix]

Just last night there was a prize idiot giving out directions to a Capercaillie lek and giving advice to visit in the early mornings - this was on the highlands thread.

I think that in a lot of cases it's just a case of ignorance Marcus. I think that newish birders might want to be accepted into the group and with their limited knowledge of things like schedule 1, then they think they are doing everyone a favour. I admit that in the past I have been guilty of not thinking things through. I think that eductaion is the key and maybe a sticky regarding this subject ought to be posted giving newcomers a chance to get the info straight away. I know that most if not all real wildlife enthusiasts would never willingly put any creature in danger.

 

[Mysticete]

I personally never really feel all that comfortable counting heard only species, except for day/year lists. I have poor hearing and suck at calls, but am much better on identification of seen birds.

So it is not just a English thing, although ABA does allow heard only birds.