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'Rolling Ball' definition (1 Viewer)

It might be nice if they offered some type of standardized formula for how much/little pin cushion. Maybe throw in lens curvature as well.

I'm mystified/intrigued on why 5-6mm of eye piece extension, 8x42 Caldera, makes so much difference in the rolling ball to me.

Hi,

If you read Holger Merlitz's article the mathematical foundation for a standardized formula is presented, which is based on his work. Like all science, however, it's open for scrutiny and I suspect may be confirmed or refined by others. In any event, I don't know if ISO will weigh in, or should, since binoculars are currently designed within an adaptable range of distortion, and it's not a measurement issue.

There are several known perceptual phenomena, symptomized by dizziness, disorientation, or nausea, which could easily be induced using binoculars and misidentified as the globe effect. In fact, with so many people looking for "rolling ball" nowadays, I wouldn't be too surprised if a huge proportion of positive findings were actually due to this. We are, after all, simply a bunch of untrained human observers believing that everyone reporting "rolling ball" is experiencing the same thing under uncontrolled observing conditions.

Ed
 
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Ed,
Louis Bell's book "The Telescope" show a finely made prismless Keplerian binocular by Steinheil, intended for comet seeking. I guess the idea is, in the pre-coating era of its manufacture, keep the number of elements to a minimum, even at the expense of a right side up image.

Bell says of it, "...clear diameter of objectives of 1 3/8 inch, magnification of 5, and a brilliant and even field of 7 1/2 degrees. The objectives are triplets...the oculars are achromatic doublets...".

That would be a prize collector's item wouldn't it?
Ron

You betcha.
 
No prisms? Wow, I would like to see that. Make my world turn upside down. Probably help for brightness though, and wouldn't be an issue for stargazing.

Very good. Keep in mind that the world is normally presented to the retina upside down, so this would simply unwind the brain, so to speak.

Transitioning might become as easy as going from a standard to automatic transmission, right to left side driving, cw to ccw focusing, or porro to roof. (Of course, Porro prism retinal offset would no longer be possible without sacrificing some optical purity. And optical purity is our enduring quest, isn't it?)
:brains:

Ed
 
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Ed,
Louis Bell's book "The Telescope" show a finely made prismless Keplerian binocular by Steinheil, intended for comet seeking. I guess the idea is, in the pre-coating era of its manufacture, keep the number of elements to a minimum, even at the expense of a right side up image.

Bell says of it, "...clear diameter of objectives of 1 3/8 inch, magnification of 5, and a brilliant and even field of 7 1/2 degrees. The objectives are triplets...the oculars are achromatic doublets...".

That would be a prize collector's item wouldn't it?
Ron

Maybe for chickens wearing image inverter goggles. :)
 
For those who might be curious, here is George Stratton's original experiment on inverted vision. It's worth reading.

Ed
PS. Also attached a .jpg
 

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Hi,

If you read Holger Merlitz's article the mathematical foundation for a standardized formula is presented, which is based on his work. Like all science, however, it's open for scrutiny and I suspect may be confirmed or refined by others. In any event, I don't know if ISO will weigh in, or should, since binoculars are currently designed within an adaptable range of distortion, and it's not a measurement issue.

There are several known perceptual phenomena, symptomized by dizziness, disorientation, or nausea, which could easily be induced using binoculars and misidentified as the globe effect. In fact, with so many people looking for "rolling ball" nowadays, I wouldn't be too surprised if a huge proportion of positive findings were actually due to this. We are, after all, simply a bunch of untrained human observers believing that everyone reporting "rolling ball" is experiencing the same thing under uncontrolled observing conditions.

Ed

I've read it several times & have attempted to get as close to the laptop screen as the bar graph shows w/limited success. One can have their eyes examined for the need/strength of prescription glass and the DMV has you read a few lines of letters, both eyes open, and then go through a series of peripheral red flashing lights, left/right/both. So, I thought how nice if the same would apply to binoculars using Holger Merlitz's diagrams/templates of various degrees.

I don't have to look for the globe effect/RB as it's evident enough, especially in a horizontal pan, as images appear to come closer in the center/foreground and then fade into the background. I know the movement is my perception. It doesn't bother me and I consider it welcome, when viewing in dense woods, over some aggressive PC movement that's reminiscent of the spooky talking trees from, The Wizard of OZ.

I have some cheap Japanese built 10x50 w/262' FOV that are a pin cushion nightmare putting the 7x36 EDII to shame in the distortion race. They'll bend tree or telephone pole to a bow. I can look at a jet vapor trail, relatively low & straight in an ascent, looking up in a scan and through the plane produces a frown and back down a smile almost on the order of your basic 180* 6" compass it would seem.

These compress the middle so much that the extreme PC, @ 10x w/narow FOV, undulation somewhat mimics RB. Viewing woods in a vertical scan gives the illusion of tilting the entire picture one way for up and the other for down. This looks close to the 8x42 Caldera, in the middle eyepiece position, view. However, w/Caldera mild RB there's no curving/distortion to speak of and the picture is relatively flat.

Also, it seems to me that binoculars are designed for close in/far away or a combination of the twain. Maybe this is influenced by magnification, FOV and/or lens curvature, but some w/lot of PC, that I've looked through anyway, tend to amplify the PC in close range and diminishes greatly over distance.

Is it PC, lens curvature or both that shows pine needles, at a distance, dancing on the edge/top of the view whilst panning L-or-R? I tend to conclude, & that within it's self is a scary thought, that it's mostly the curve. I thought PC @ first w/ambitious FOV, but pine needles in the Caldera don't dance at all. Also, the 8x30 & 10x40 Conquests that have been reviewed we/lot of distortion/PC don't exhibit this trait. The top of pines through the EDII looked as if they were dancing the hula. Yet, if I didn't look at that edge or look at woods inside of 75 yds they were expansive w/clean colour & sharp view.

W/better glass these days around $300-$500 & up it would be nice if you could be measured and have glass rated to give you an idea of what style & how much of the mix that you might prefer. Maybe not practical, but nice.

For what it's worth I no longer see the same amount of RB in a pan w/Caldera. It's now like I described when fully extending the eyepieces. I see undulation,yet the objects no longer jump closer in center view. As near as I can tell the vertical is still the same & it's pleasant. The mild RB is clearly outweighed by the straight/distortion free. for the most part, view.

Sorry for being all over the board as I certainly have no intentions of hijacking your thread.
 
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Ed,
That is very interesting, thanks. What a painstaking description!

I wonder if you could also point us to the fabled "chickens wearing prisms" experiment, or at least tell us something about it, like, did that really happen?
Ron
 
I stated that the vertical RB in the 8x42 Caldera is still the same, yet I didn't elaborate. Looking at a single tree close or woods 80 yds off is all the same. Starting at the trunk/ground level everything is square w/o unnatural lines. When I start the vertical climb, at a steady pace, it seems as if I'm looking at the top quarter of the back hemisphere of a circle.

That is everything appears to bend, in a constant curve, towards me. When I reach the top of the tree I may only be looking at a 45-55*angle, yet the vertical scan can give the illusion/perception that I'm almost at zenith.

At first I half-heartily wondered if I might fall backwards. It isn't annoying nor does it cause any duress, but it's readily noticeable.

PC made everything, in a vertical scan, stretch up & out on a flat plane whilst the globe effect takes the flat plane & rolls it in a curve towards me; if that makes sense.

Pin cushion curves left & right, from a pan/scan everything flows from the leading edge center out to the edges in worse case scenerios. Better glass for me doesn't show nearly the movement in the middle & more subdued on the edges. Globe effect curves front to back. I prefer the latter as it appears to be the better representation to me. However, not all PC is created equal and some is easier on the eyes; possibly I ponder due to more modest FOV &/or less lens curvature, less PC notwithstanding.

I'm all ears for being corrected as I can only account & try to comprehend my optical experiences. Also, I hide nothing in edits, but try to clarify my point, correct spelling and/or writing mistakes.
 
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Ed,
That is very interesting, thanks. What a painstaking description!

I wonder if you could also point us to the fabled "chickens wearing prisms" experiment, or at least tell us something about it, like, did that really happen?
Ron

Hi Ron,

Holger Merlitz recently mentioned his interest in writing a book that brought out more psychological aspects of binocular design and use; but he also said that it's a "swamp," which indeed it is.

In our circle of binohaulics, reference to chicken experiments originated with Steve Ingraham, I believe, based on what someone else told him. It was cute and captured people's attention but not much more; and now there's no way to know what study he was referring to.

Yes, there were such studies, but it's not as straight forward as one might hope, keeping in mind there's no way to ask a chicken directly what he (she?) perceives. (Well, you can ask, but don't expect an answer more satisfying than cluck, cluck.) We can only draw inferences from what chickens learn, such as their success at pecking for corn on a table, and stuff like that. And they do improve in pecking performance with practice, but to what degree of proficiency I don't recall.

So, studies involving humans might be more illuminating, I would think. This fairly recent paper by Linden, et. al. is a good example of how skepticism leads from one question to another in this scientific swamp. In this case, an annoying question remains: how necessary is it, really, that perception correspond with normal vision if learned performance can accomplish practical tasks? Maybe it doesn't matter what the chicken thinks, after all; it only matters what he can do.
;)

Ed
PS. Nix, sorry not to respond to your posts that seem to revolve around Caldera binoculars, which I have no experience with.
 

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Ed,
Thanks again for sharing something from your field. It strikes me that during Stratton's day, many otherwise normal people purported to believe in fairies. Clearly, folk's heads have gotten more cynical and harder in 120 years. Call it evolution. Yep, that's gotta be it. (nice to not HAVE to figure these things out!)
Ron
 
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