Red Kites at Griggin (mixed feelings) (1 Viewer)

[pie]

Hi All,
During my visit to Mid wales, I visited Griggin Farm. For those of you not familiar with Griggin & the Red Kite feeding, a quick google will give a fascinating history.

Mid Wales is known as Red Kite country, & if you ever get the chance to visit, you will certainly know why.
Driving through the area with it's dramatic views and the skies full of Kites & Buzzards was breathtaking.

I saw a sign at Griggin saying Kite feeding at 2pm daily, so decided to spend the morning walking at Ellan Valley & visit Griggin later

I parked at a remote upland part of the Valley & although the weather was glorious, the wind was biting. I watched in awe as the occasional Kite or Buzzard would circle & swoop down for their prey. At one point they came so close I feared I was on the menu!

I was glad for the drive to Griggin to allow me to thaw!

Griggin was everything it says on the packet and more. The farmer duly arrived at 2pm & shovelled the food. The Crows were already waiting & Kites had started to circle the area followed by 2 Buzzards.
The hides (approx 10) were full of viewers all watching as the Birds frantically jostled each other for food. It was fascinating.
But.......
For me, there was no comparison to the unexpected more natural views of the B.O.Prey in the Valley.

When leaving Griggin, I felt as if I had been to the 2pm performance at the theatre. And I did wonder if this type of regular feeding affects bird behaviour in the long term. Not being an expert I'm not in any way offering an opinion, more a feeling.

These are my observations which reflect more about my type of enjoyment from birding and in no way intended to criticize the remarkable history & progress of Griggin Farm.

Pics 1&2 Griggin Farm
Pic 3. View from my log cabin
Pics 3&4 Up close in the Ellan Valley

I hope you find my take on Griggin interesting & please feel free to express your opinions (including negative)

Bye for now all

 

[robinm]

I must say when we went to that area of Wales we got a far bigger thrill seeing 1 or 2 kites that we often came across walking on the hills than seeing loads at Gigrin.

 

[Kezza]

Pie those pics are really really amazing! Absolutely stunning, you must be over the moon with them. The way you've caught the last kite and buzzard flying is excellent and really shows the beautiful colours. Well done, I'm really pleased for you.

What a view to have from your cabin too, bet you didn't want to leave there! As I've said on here recently, the Elan Valley is my all time favourite place. I've camped for a few days at Gigrin Farm on two occassions and thoroughly enjoyed it. Waking up to the hilly views and the farmer herding his sheep past the tent was great! The family that run it are lovely and always keen to talk about all of the wildlife on their farm, not just the kites. They also have an active badger sett they took us to view one evening from a distance.

Until I read someone's comments on this forum last year, I hadn't thought of it as a 'show' or considered whether or not it was good for the kites. It made me think. They asked whether the owners were 'in it for the money' and said it was perhaps discouraging the birds from spreading out across Eng and Wales. I'm positive it means more to them than making money but maybe it could be discouraging them from spreading out, it is said that's what's happening in the Chilterns with people feeding them. I'm no expert either and don't know whether the feeding part of gigrin is what's best for the kites in the long run, or not.

They have certainly done a lot of good for the kites over the years though and encouraged many people to appreciate them. It is spectacular to see them over the hills of course but also to have the opportunity to view them close up. I enjoy both.
BTW, they have a website with a regularly updated diary if anyone doesn't know and is interested.
http://www.gigrin.co.uk/index.html

Glad you enjoyed your time in the area pie and well done again with those fabulous photos.

 

[mauricek]

I don't like the sound of this at all.It smacks of watching a falconry display and is not as exciting as seeing a lone bird or a pair hunting naturally.It sounds like an an open aviary. The younger birds must think it's normal to be fed and lose some of their survival skills. Why not cut the feeding during summer and let them survive as nature intended?
maurice.....NATURALIST

 

[matt green]

Great pictures Pie, love those Buzzards with the kites o

Regarding your concerns, I don't really know enough about the birds behaviour to comment on the situation.One thing I do know though is that
before these birds were persecuted (and prior to the 20th century) they're
prefered diet of carion would have been much more common in the countryside.These days farmers are obliged to dispose of animal carcases
from their land to prevent the spread of potential health threats.The feeding at gigrin I believe is in part an effort to offer carion to these birds that is no longer found in the modern farming environment.

Like you it has accured to me that these birds might become dependent on the feeding stations, however I also suspect that they are able to seek food
for themselves away from the feeding station.

I did wonder if it might have been better to feed the birds from two or three different locations and at irregular intervals?, however the resources to do this would be impractical.They certainly look happy and well fed!

Just my opinion :flyaway:

Matt

 

[brianfm]

Nice pics Pie.

Interesting point you make about the feeding. First time I saw Red Kites in the UK was at Harewood in Yorkshire. I must say I was far more excited and impressed by the Red Kites I saw a little further down the road at Eccup Resevoir, as they were in wilder conditions although much further away. On balance however I think if places like Gigrin Farm can bring in the people and increase interest in the Red Kites and wildlife in general then I am all for it. If someone can make a little money out of it too I say good luck to them just so long as no harm is being done.

The issue of whether feeding the birds has an effect on distribution. I don't know although I suppose it must have some effect. I do know residents of the Chiltern area were advised recently not to feed the Kites as they were supposedly being effected, in that they were not getting the correct nutrients. Not so sure how big a problem that really is as Red Kites historically always scavanged in towns and villages. In any event if we are to question feeding of wild birds where do we stop? What about garden birds? Is there any real difference in feeding the Blackbirds and feeding the Red Kites? Just a thought that may get some discussion going.

Though provoking post Pie. Whatever I too applaude the work that has been done with the re-introduction of Red Kites. Been a great success story and we have them up here now too! I hope to be seeing some at the weekend. I have to say I don't much like seeing the birds with those large tags on them, but I suppose it is the price to be paid for a succesful project.

Best wishes

 

[George Garner]

Hi Brian,
I totally agree with you, it is like a performance at the theatre. And I also agree about the Elan Valley, it does get a bit parky up there, but the views of the Raptors more than compensate for this. Another site they used to feed at was Tregorran, the opposite side of town to the bog, Iv'e had great views there in the past, and it's much more natural. Sounds as though you had a very nice birdy experience.
George

 

[bill moss]

Hi pie,

What wonderful photos, you must be chuffed to bits with them. I'd dead envious of the Kite ones, another species that I don't have photos of (no I think that's a bit too far for me these days).

I'm also a bit dubious of the level of feeding that goes on. You can't compare it to what we do in gardens , the amounts of food as a % of total intake are quite different. I'm all in favour of low-level feeding, that is enough to tide the natural population over difficult periods. The trouble is that we don't have a 'natural' population of Red Kites since they were persecuted almost to extinction. The feeding was originally started to help the relict population to increase, alongside other conservation measures, but it does seem to me to have gone over the top. One thing that we should consider is what the effect would be if the artificial feeding were to stop (farmers etc don't live forever), would there be enough natural food to supply the new demand? And I agree that it must have an effect on dispersal, part of the drive to disperse is to find new territories with an adequate food supply when the population gets too large for the breeding area supply. Difficult.

Anyway, you enjoyed your trip pie and that's the main thing.

Bill

 

[brianfm]

Does anyone know the percentage of feed the Red Kites take from feeding stations in relation to the feed they take from natural carrion? I have read the Gigrin Farm site and it seems to me that the number of birds varies depending on season and weather. That suggests to me that they are also feeding elsewhere. So therfore I beg to differ that this cannot be in some way compared to feeding garden birds at feeding stations, where in winter especially, some species spend a great deal of time and therefore one assumes, take a good percentage of their food there, as they do in my own garden. I am of course very pro feeding garden birds. However I accept that it can be argued that feeding them in summer may not be necessary (I seem to remember some study is being carried out into this with no results as yet) and that this could possibly effect dispersal. I am not saying it does, but that it is possible. I feed garden birds in summer.

As I say of course going to see birds enmasse at feeding stations is to me not as exciting as seeing them in more natural and wilder circumstances. I do feel strongly that these stations act as a good educational/informative and mind grabbing experience. Lets face the fact that the vast majority of people do not go bird watching nor take a keen interest in birds. These stations in my opinion do an excellent job in bringing birds to the attention of some of those people. Of course if I was shown some evidence that the birds where suffering through this then I would alter my view. Has anyone got any evidence?

I had assumed this project had been planned on the assumption that the natural envoronment could support the Red Kites. I don't think I have that wrong, but if I have then the project has a major weakness. As far as I am aware no feeding station has been set up in the Derwent Valley, Tyneside for the re-introduced Red Kites. Again someone correct me if I am wrong on that one.

 

[Ant]

Sounds like you had a good day at Gigrin I suppose you only went as I'd been in feb. :-O

 

[Dizzy]

Superb photos Pie. Hmmmm, dont really know enough to comment. I suppose if it helps them then its all good, but as you say it its nicer to see them in a more 'wild and natural' environment. (Not that I've got much chance of that, unless I take myself off down to Dumfries area )


Best wishes

 

[chris3871]

I think with the state of farming these days its only expected that farmers will have to diversify. I think it's great to hear that they diversifying into something beneficial. Perhaps it is a little artificial, but it's an accessable spectacle that's shown it's not always humans versus nature. I don't really think anyone is losing too much.

P.S Glad you had a good day Pie, and thanks for bringing this up!

 

[PeterK]

Hi All I think I agree with Brian is feeding Red Kites any better or worse than feeding any species of bird, I suspect it is not. They certainly are more impressive out in the wilds hunting as nature intended, but would we have Red Kites at all without the feeding and breeding that has taken place, I suspect not.
I have never seen a feeding area for Red Kites personally, but have seen many other Raptors in semi captive situations, ie in the Wigan Raptor Centre were they care for lost and injured Raptors, if it helps to keep an endangered species alive and well then I feel it is better than allowing them to face extinction, whether this is any different from all the feeding stations that this forum obviously supports for wild birds is another argument which I personally lack the courage to begin.

Good Birding PeterK

 

[Kezza]

Just to add,
As Bill says the feeding was just one of the ways of increasing the kite population when there were so few left. The RSPB and Welsh Kite Trust encouraged farmers to feed the birds and guards used to protect nest sites. In 1994 the RSPB asked Gigrin (who were already feeding the birds and had many roosting in trees on their land) to be the ‘Official Kite Country’ ‘Red Kite Feeding Station'. In 2003 they became the rehab centre for injured kites too.

They can get up to 400 birds in winter during bad weather but sometimes just a few in good weather in spr/sum. Each bird must surely only get a very small amount of food and I doubt is totally reliant on the handouts. They are scavengers after all and I'm sure still get their own food, but find the farm's food useful during hard times, not depend upon it.

going to see birds enmasse at feeding stations is to me not as exciting as seeing them in more natural and wilder circumstances. I do feel strongly that these stations act as a good educational/informative and mind grabbing experience. Lets face the fact that the vast majority of people do not go bird watching nor take a keen interest in birds. These stations in my opinion do an excellent job in bringing birds to the attention of some of those people

Yes I agree.


Here's the other thread that discussed Gigrin a few years ago
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=1296&highlight=gigrin

 

[Quacker]

On my visit to Gigrin, I was astonished by the sheer numbers - anywhere from 50-70 swooping everywhere. A great spectacle, yet also false.

We also have our own introduced Kites in Gateshead... not quite the same (though rightfully loved by the locals). The biggest buzz for me as mentioned was seeing them wild and free on the way to Gigrin - special moment.

The best thing for me was the crow i.d. parade at Gigrin - a new and inexperienced birder was learning and as well as the Heron & Buzzard attracted by the free meal, there was what I described as a crow masterclass!

Jackdaw, Carrion Crow, Rook, and Raven all alongside each other for comparison (Magpie too I think!) just a simple thing but great none the less.

 

[Judo]

Hi Pie,
Those photos are wonderful!! Well done you! I particularly like the fourth photo, the way you've caught the Kite with the wings on the upbeat like that.....fantastic!!.....and that view is to die for!!
Not experienced enough to offer a comment about the feeding....but do understand what you mean about the theatre.....it sounds a bit like "feeding time at the zoo"!.....but they are still free & in the wild, so not a very good comparison I suppose!!
Hope to get into Wales ourselves next week, not strictly birding.....but....you never know!!!
All the Best to You pie,

 

[pie]

Hi All,
I feel very encouraged by the diversity of comments posted with regard to the feeding of Red Kites.
Not surprisingly it raises more questions than answers, many of which deserve a more informed answer than I can give with my limited knowledge.
Having said that, many of the comments made have articulated many of my concerns. As Matt highlighted with the restrictions now put on farmers being obligated to dispose animal carcass and therefore the need for carrion eaters to seek food elsewhere. I also think you raise a good point Matt about feeding stations at 2 or 3 locations. The Kites knew the exact location as if "X" marks the spot. I spent time talking to the farmer prior to the feeding, he was very helpful and approachable, as you found Kezza during your visit. I chose a viewing point away from the main feeding area & where most viewers were. However, he drove across the field and put food nearby giving me a better views of the Kites. I was surprised that Kites, Crows & Buzzards made no attempt to take advantage of the extra food, & all jostled in the main area, especially as it was only tennis court length away.
Their behaviour seemed institutionalised. Perhaps more like the Falconry display Maurice described!

I do wonder if this type of habitual behaviour will have an effect on distribution Brian if the example Ive given is anything to go by, I cant imagine they would go too far from base, why would they?
I would guess the % of food Red Kites take from feeding stations in relation to natural carrion would be small Brian, based on what I saw, the Crows eat most of the food & I would estimate 20/30 Kites fed on the day I visited although I understand they can have up to 400 Kites.

As you say Bill in your comments about not having a "natural" population of Red kites since persecution almost to extinction. I understand that all the Kites are a descendant of one single female. It makes me wonder if that alone is a problem.

Peter & Chris both raise important points, & I agree, it's thanks to these feeding schemes that Red Kites no longer face extinction.
And Kezza also highlighted the benefits of education and the attraction to people who would not necessarily take an interest in birds.

I think the overall view I have is similar to most birders, we tend to be like minded and enjoy the natural world, & the joy we get when the unexpected happens as Robinm, Dizzy, Ant & George have highlighted.
We never know what we will see & that's the wonder of birds.

Thank you everyone for your interesting viewpoints. I hope others are able to tackle some of the more indepth issues raised. It would be facinating to understand more about the issues surrounding feeding stations.

 

[pie]

Hi Kezza, Quacker & Judo,
I didn't ignore you!! sorry about that you must have posted when I was reading & replying to the thread.
Thank you all for joining the debate, I think Ive also written about some of the issues raised in your post Kezza and well worth highlighting, thank you for that.
Thank you Judo for your great comments about the pics, they are beauties aren't they.
The Crows were facinating Quaker, I managed to get some great action shots of them.
Thanks again all

 

[Sue Wright]

I don't like the sound of this at all.It smacks of watching a falconry display and is not as exciting as seeing a lone bird or a pair hunting naturally.It sounds like an an open aviary. The younger birds must think it's normal to be fed and lose some of their survival skills. Why not cut the feeding during summer and let them survive as nature intended?
maurice.....NATURALIST

Hi Pie,

Some great photos you've got there, number 4 is a real stunner!

However, Maurice's words about it all sums up my feelings completely. As a reintroduced species, I feel they must have got numbers wrong if they need to feed them to such an extent. I think Bill also sums it up quite well with the quota questioning. However, has it now got to a stage where the money made from it is the greater reason for continuing to feed them at such an extent.

My first natural sighting of one was in 2002 and it was incredible, so too was the one we saw near us last Spring and that is the way I'd like to come by them - naturally! I wouldn't go to Griggin as I fear it may spoil my view of Kites, so I won't be risking it. Good to see your input too Robin!

Sue.

 

[Pam_m]

Hi Pie,

Firstly I must cogratulate you on some superb photos :clap: and I am pleased that you enjoyed your break away in such a beautiful part of the country.

I have visited Gigrin and thoroughly enjoyed the experience of seeing the Kites and Crows etc that the feeding station attracts.

Now saying feeding station made me think of our own feeding stations, not dissimilar really are they? I liken putting up feeders and putting out ground food as a supplement. Only yesterday I was watching a Blackbird pull a juicy worm out of the lawn, yet there was food I had put out just a couple of feet away. I watch the Blue and Great Tits scouring the trees for insects even though the same trees have fat balls and peanuts hanging on some of the branches. The hedgehogs have come out of hibernation and I am putting out fresh water and cat food each evening, but hopefully as last year we shall not see as many snails in the garden as of past years.

Some of us subscribe to the RSPB and Wildlife and Wetland Trusts, who also put up feeding stations and feed the birds daily.Slimbridge is an example when they invite you in winter to watch the feeding of the Bewick's Swans.

The point I am trying to make is that Gigrin to me is supplementing the feeding of the Kites etc and since they were asked by the RSPB as Kezza has already mentioned to be the 'Official Red Kite Feeding Station' they have now established an educational twist to it too! The more people are made aware of our precious wildlife the better. As for the point that if ever the owners wanted to give the farm up, well perhaps the RSPB have an obligation to make sure the Kites are catered for.

I sincerely wish Gigrin continued success as I feel they are doing a superb job, and of course their feeding station is not a blot on the landscape.

Just my thoughts. o

All the best