-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Rat poison causing owl deaths (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter borealowl47
- Start date
citrinella
Well-known member
This poses a difficult question - which I face as a farmer. I am obliged by law to control the rats around my grain store, but there are owls locally which I desperately want to protect.
I heard about an owl safe poison - Eradirat - which is basically pure cellulose. The rats can't digest this, so die of starvation. However, the word is out that this worked fine in the labs, where test rats had nothing else to eat. On farm, rats aren't stupid enough to eat it when there is plenty other feed about, it simply isn't attractive enough.
What do I do ?
1. I tip the sweepings from the grain store at an open site well away from the steading (farm buildings) where they will hopefully attract rats away from the steading. This site is pretty much home to a buzzard, good start.
2. I maximise use of traps. These help, but when the weather is really bad - as it has been the last two winters, rats move in, in numbers.
3. We use poison only inside to try to keep affected rats away from owls.
4. We use poisons with as quick action as possible, to try to get the rats dead before they can move within reach of the owls.
Note this point - deliberately using the most potent poison available. the reason for this is that rats develop tolerance of poisons. This caused problems with the red kite re-introduction programme along the M4 corridor in England. Rats ate poison but in many cases remained mobile. They were then taken and eaten by kites, which had no tolerance of the poison and were killed. I understand the problem was overcome by moving to poisons for which the rats had not developed tolerance.
5. We get the store empty and clean it thoroughly as long before harvest as we can to encourage the rats to get out and stay out.
Incidentally we asked for a design for the new grain store that would be rat proof. Essentially only silos can be made rat proof (and those were unsuitable for all our storage). Rats can deform their skulls, allowing them to squeeze through gaps of about 10mm (incredible isn't it) and are also amazing climbers, incredibly intelligent, and well versed in avoiding the perils devised by man. For instance, a trap will only work if it has no trace of human scent. We wear gloves and rub them in soil before touching the traps (tactics learned from mole catchers).
Even without the law forcing us to control rats I believe we should. I am pretty clear they come under the heading of "invasive non-native" - they colonized the world with man (another invasive non-native ! ).
Mike.
I heard about an owl safe poison - Eradirat - which is basically pure cellulose. The rats can't digest this, so die of starvation. However, the word is out that this worked fine in the labs, where test rats had nothing else to eat. On farm, rats aren't stupid enough to eat it when there is plenty other feed about, it simply isn't attractive enough.
What do I do ?
1. I tip the sweepings from the grain store at an open site well away from the steading (farm buildings) where they will hopefully attract rats away from the steading. This site is pretty much home to a buzzard, good start.
2. I maximise use of traps. These help, but when the weather is really bad - as it has been the last two winters, rats move in, in numbers.
3. We use poison only inside to try to keep affected rats away from owls.
4. We use poisons with as quick action as possible, to try to get the rats dead before they can move within reach of the owls.
Note this point - deliberately using the most potent poison available. the reason for this is that rats develop tolerance of poisons. This caused problems with the red kite re-introduction programme along the M4 corridor in England. Rats ate poison but in many cases remained mobile. They were then taken and eaten by kites, which had no tolerance of the poison and were killed. I understand the problem was overcome by moving to poisons for which the rats had not developed tolerance.
5. We get the store empty and clean it thoroughly as long before harvest as we can to encourage the rats to get out and stay out.
Incidentally we asked for a design for the new grain store that would be rat proof. Essentially only silos can be made rat proof (and those were unsuitable for all our storage). Rats can deform their skulls, allowing them to squeeze through gaps of about 10mm (incredible isn't it) and are also amazing climbers, incredibly intelligent, and well versed in avoiding the perils devised by man. For instance, a trap will only work if it has no trace of human scent. We wear gloves and rub them in soil before touching the traps (tactics learned from mole catchers).
Even without the law forcing us to control rats I believe we should. I am pretty clear they come under the heading of "invasive non-native" - they colonized the world with man (another invasive non-native ! ).
Mike.
Monahawk
Well-known member
Some great you make points there Mike on a very controversial subject. Living in an agricultural area in Ireland I know only to well there can be problems with rats and ways to control them. Personally I am against the use of poisons because a] it's an agonising way for a creature to die, b] the residues in the rats body will get into the food chain and thus can poison any predators be they birds or mammals.
I'm glad you raised the issue with rats resistance to certain poisons but still there being a huge risk to killing predators which have not built an immunity.
There are other methods to control rats and other forms of rodent vermin. Shooting with air rifle is one but this requires patience,time and above all a descent shot. Having cats about the farm can help as well as a terrier or two or consider a ferret or polecat. There are of course traps but these can be untrustworthy and can cause terrible injuries and stress if the animal is not caught properly.
There is no doubt that rat poisons have contributed greatly to the decline of barn owls worldwide. Let's just hope many farmers and landowners become more aware of this in future [ and there are some] instead of relying on the 'magic' quick fix of an agripoison to do the job of controlling rats.
Si.
I'm glad you raised the issue with rats resistance to certain poisons but still there being a huge risk to killing predators which have not built an immunity.
There are other methods to control rats and other forms of rodent vermin. Shooting with air rifle is one but this requires patience,time and above all a descent shot. Having cats about the farm can help as well as a terrier or two or consider a ferret or polecat. There are of course traps but these can be untrustworthy and can cause terrible injuries and stress if the animal is not caught properly.
There is no doubt that rat poisons have contributed greatly to the decline of barn owls worldwide. Let's just hope many farmers and landowners become more aware of this in future [ and there are some] instead of relying on the 'magic' quick fix of an agripoison to do the job of controlling rats.
Si.
George Hogg
Well-known member
As a professional user of rodenticides in rural situations in U.K. I am disturbed by the report and am currently making enquiries re the U.K.situation.
My initial thoughts are..
1. Users are assured by producers that modern rodenticides do not cause "secondary poisoning",but I always take assurances from chemical producers with a pnch os salt.
2.Many professional users,myself included, are concerned about sale of pesticides to the public as we come across regular situations where rat bait is not being sited safely as regards access by dogs,birds,etc.
3.As well as a risk assessment and coshh(control of substances hazardous to health) assessment,users are obliged to carry out an environmental assessment re protection of the bait to prevent access by non target species.
The environmental assessment should include the possibility of poisoned rodents being found and eaten by non target animals and birds.
If there is a likelihood of this happening the user must take steps (including not using rodenticide at all)to prevent such access.
4.The most practical measure regarding Barn Owls is to survey the farm buildings for owl signs.If these are present,use another method.
5.I should hope instances of immunity resulting in rodent "carriers" of poison,are not due to professional users,though I realise there are careful and careless users in both camps.
A professional user applying an ineffective rodenticide is wasting his own money,a strong reason not to do it.
My initial thoughts are..
1. Users are assured by producers that modern rodenticides do not cause "secondary poisoning",but I always take assurances from chemical producers with a pnch os salt.
2.Many professional users,myself included, are concerned about sale of pesticides to the public as we come across regular situations where rat bait is not being sited safely as regards access by dogs,birds,etc.
3.As well as a risk assessment and coshh(control of substances hazardous to health) assessment,users are obliged to carry out an environmental assessment re protection of the bait to prevent access by non target species.
The environmental assessment should include the possibility of poisoned rodents being found and eaten by non target animals and birds.
If there is a likelihood of this happening the user must take steps (including not using rodenticide at all)to prevent such access.
4.The most practical measure regarding Barn Owls is to survey the farm buildings for owl signs.If these are present,use another method.
5.I should hope instances of immunity resulting in rodent "carriers" of poison,are not due to professional users,though I realise there are careful and careless users in both camps.
A professional user applying an ineffective rodenticide is wasting his own money,a strong reason not to do it.
Last edited:
dantheman
Bah humbug
In the 'olden days' of farming a good ratter was invaluable.
Blokes with terriers would regularly go around the local area. Part of the community. Farm cats too. A healthy population of local predators would also help in control, but of course it was always a (sometimes losing) battle ...
Advances in technology ...
(Sure I'll be corrected if I got some/most of that wrong lol
)
Blokes with terriers would regularly go around the local area. Part of the community. Farm cats too. A healthy population of local predators would also help in control, but of course it was always a (sometimes losing) battle ...
Advances in technology ...
(Sure I'll be corrected if I got some/most of that wrong lol
)Here in New York, we have a huge rat population, in and also around Central Park for instance.
Several Red Tailed Hawks (Pale Male descendants) have been found poisoned by the rats they prey on.
The NYC Parks Department has switched poisons to reduce this risk, but fledglings remain vulnerable.
A more effective predator is needed, something like a weasel sized shrew with a serious taste for rats.
Genetic engineering, anyone?
Several Red Tailed Hawks (Pale Male descendants) have been found poisoned by the rats they prey on.
The NYC Parks Department has switched poisons to reduce this risk, but fledglings remain vulnerable.
A more effective predator is needed, something like a weasel sized shrew with a serious taste for rats.
Genetic engineering, anyone?
lashinala
Well-known member
In our 'old days' we had lots of rattlers here, in addition to ratters. Of course, the only rats we had in pre-Columbian days were woodrats (pack rats) so they weren't as big a problem. I had a rat snake in my basement for several years, and it kept the chipmunk and mouse population down, but couldn't take on the agressive squirrels. I've already lost a dog to rat poison, so I can't stand the stuff either....there has to be a better way. I don't trust 'the public' to appropriately use poisons any more.
citrinella
Well-known member
Some folk seem to be forgetting the damage cats do to bird populations.
Mike.
Mike.
Clive A
Well-known member
Funnily enough I was thinking about the exact same thing having seen both rats and a Tawny Owl from my garden yesterday.Just thinking outloud , are rats the menace we consider them to be? or are we still obsessed with killing them since the plague years? What other creatures do we still seek to eradicate? Yes I think they are proven to carry disease, but from where does it come?
Monahawk
Well-known member
Clive. When do rats not become a menace? Ok having maybe one around the place may not pose too much of a problem, but one doesn't stay one for long. Along comes another, then another. They start to breed. If conditions are suitable they breed some more. Soon they begin to spread. If there is little control over their poulation be it from natural predators or man, problems can arise. Rats are great opportunists for which I admire them. Rats are clean, but only to themselves. They do harbour diseases some of which can be serious to man and other creatures and this is the main fear people have of them. I knew an elderly woman who had no fear of rats, in fact she fed them. One day she got Weil's Disease and was dead within a week. A cautionary tale about rattus norvegicus if ever there was one.
On farms they seek out easy pickings. Grain and cattle feed are a favourite. But they can contaminate these with their urine and droppings rendering them useless. Too many rats around farms and other properties cause other problems also like chewed wires and water pipes not to mention the contamination threat again.
Rats and man have lived side by side for generations but it has been an uneasy alliance to say the least. Yes man has contributed and created problems for himself with regards to rats. Like I said it's their opportunism which has to be admired but we must be cautious with regards to letting their populations get out of control.
Si.
On farms they seek out easy pickings. Grain and cattle feed are a favourite. But they can contaminate these with their urine and droppings rendering them useless. Too many rats around farms and other properties cause other problems also like chewed wires and water pipes not to mention the contamination threat again.
Rats and man have lived side by side for generations but it has been an uneasy alliance to say the least. Yes man has contributed and created problems for himself with regards to rats. Like I said it's their opportunism which has to be admired but we must be cautious with regards to letting their populations get out of control.
Si.
lashinala
Well-known member
Yes, but just a reminder....all rats aren't made the same. We have Allegheny woodrats, Eastern woodrats, marsh rice rats, muskrats, etc. They aren't ALL bad. As a matter of fact, invasive rats are our biggest problem, the others being mainly ecosystem dependent. Here's our rodents for Alabama:
http://www.outdooralabama.com/watchable-wildlife/what/mammals/Rodents/
Oddly I can find Allegheny woodrats on several mountains in the north Alabama area and the state (and TVA for that matter) could care less....high conservation concern?
If I poison for Black/Norway rats and end up only killing Allegheny/Eastern woodrats and, is this acceptable? This is what bothers me about indescriminant poisoning outside--it's just like leaving landmines....bad idea.
http://www.outdooralabama.com/watchable-wildlife/what/mammals/Rodents/
Oddly I can find Allegheny woodrats on several mountains in the north Alabama area and the state (and TVA for that matter) could care less....high conservation concern?
If I poison for Black/Norway rats and end up only killing Allegheny/Eastern woodrats and, is this acceptable? This is what bothers me about indescriminant poisoning outside--it's just like leaving landmines....bad idea.
That's certainly true over here.
dantheman
Bah humbug
Guessing that must be me lol
And I guess I did. Although I was thinking perhaps that cats, like many predator tend to specialise if circumstances lend themselves - a particulalarly good ratter wouldn't be going for other types of creatures. Terriers (and some cats) would be good for 300+ rats a day in the right circumstances.
Other traditional rat prevention measures would have included those stone mushrooms, I believe.
Clive A
Well-known member
Yes I accept all the points you make, like I said I was jsut thinking outloud really. It's an interesting conundrum (is that the right word) though isn't it? I am just uneasy at the amount of poison we must be putting into the food chain, with results unknown. I have 2 neighbours who have totally different views on rats, which is probably why I tossed in the question.The bloke next door gets very stressed and rallies the whole neighbourhood to lay down poison, "they are full of disease, it's in their tails you know!" whereas the woman next to him doesn't mind them at all (suppose she would if she got weil's disease mind).
Trouble is like you say man makes his own problems, which leads to abnormal populations of rats. I guess in the end rats are ok, on someone elses property, and if we need to control them (and I agree we probably do) then it would be good to do it by other means than poison.
Am in strong agreement with Clive A on the issue of poisons.
Most of them have very long persistence in the environment and continue to do damage far beyond the initial target. In many ways, this indiscriminate use of poorly understood toxic substances is an assault on our own and our childrens' future.
Most of them have very long persistence in the environment and continue to do damage far beyond the initial target. In many ways, this indiscriminate use of poorly understood toxic substances is an assault on our own and our childrens' future.
citrinella
Well-known member
Guessing that must be me lol
And I guess I did. Although I was thinking perhaps that cats, like many predator tend to specialise if circumstances lend themselves - a particulalarly good ratter wouldn't be going for other types of creatures. Terriers (and some cats) would be good for 300+ rats a day in the right circumstances.
300+ ?
Terriers maybe but I doubt they would have the time to do that many. When we used to clean out the hen houses a team of men with two dogs would kill as many rats as we could. Our score tended to be limited to about 100.
I have never met a cat that could be bothered with more than about a score of mouse kills a day, and we used to have a cat rescue which turned over about 400 cats a year. 300 rats > surely you jest ?
No, I am not picking on you
Mike.
George Hogg
Well-known member
Code or Conduct for Rodenticide use
Here is a link to the Campaign for Responsible Rodenticide Use where you will find a 7 point Code of Conduct aimed at reducing rodenticide exposure to wildlife.
As the latest U.K. figures state 80% of roadkill Barn Owls have been found to contain rodenticide residues (mainly at very low doses),this code should be followed by all who use rodenticides.
As regards th producers of rodenticides,one has to wonder why their products must be quite so persistent in the body.
I know they have to be retained long enough to buid up a fatal dose in rodents,but surely they should break up eventually,allowing raptors to be rid of them?
http://www.thinkwildlife.org.uk/crru-code.php
Here is a link to the Campaign for Responsible Rodenticide Use where you will find a 7 point Code of Conduct aimed at reducing rodenticide exposure to wildlife.
As the latest U.K. figures state 80% of roadkill Barn Owls have been found to contain rodenticide residues (mainly at very low doses),this code should be followed by all who use rodenticides.
As regards th producers of rodenticides,one has to wonder why their products must be quite so persistent in the body.
I know they have to be retained long enough to buid up a fatal dose in rodents,but surely they should break up eventually,allowing raptors to be rid of them?
http://www.thinkwildlife.org.uk/crru-code.php
Similar threads
