Raptors, south of France (1 Viewer)

[julienl]

Hello,

Two raptors seen in the south of France on september 5th.

1-2) Montagu's Harrier ?
3) Really crappy photo...Is it possible to give id just based on shape ? This bird was seen in Les Alpilles.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

#1 Wing formula, white collar, translucent (not solidly black primaries) and lack of black tips to secondaries point to Pallid imo

- can’t really make out #1 - could possibly be a Goshawk

 

[rosbifs]

It has a lot of white in the face though? I was going to say Monties

But then I was also going to say Sparrowhawk despite it's bulk....

 

[tconzemi]

#1 Wing formula, white collar, translucent (not solidly black primaries) and lack of black tips to secondaries point to Pallid imo

- can’t really make out #1 - could possibly be a Goshawk

it's an interesting bird for sure, but is the collar bold enough and isn't there too much white around the eye
Tips on inner primaries overexposed by sun, tips of fingers not black but Montys can show that
I wouldn't like to ID that one as a Pallid in France
Second is a Sparrowhwk imo

 

[Deb Burhinus]

It has a lot of white in the face though? I was going to say Monties

But then I was also going to say Sparrowhawk despite it's bulk....

Yes, I could be wrong on both accounts - I ‘m on a really small screen and can’t make out much detail but the wingtips of the harrier don’t look solidly dark to me and I can’t really make out a trailing edge to the inner primaries (but perhaps it’s the light) Juvenile Pallids have white under the eye, so that doesn’t concern me though.

(I almost certainly wrong on the second - it’s a bit of a wild guess)

x post with Tom btw

 

[julienl]

Here is another picture for the harrier that I overexposed.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

some good comparison images here

https://wrightswanderings.blogspot.com/2015/02/juvenile-pallid-and-montagus-harriers.html

(agree with Sparrowhawk!)

 

[julienl]

- can’t really make out #1 - could possibly be a Goshawk

You mean #3 I guess. This bird was gliding very high in the sky.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

You mean #3 I guess. This bird was gliding very high in the sky.

Hi Julienl, yes the 3rd image - I’ve now opened the laptop (for a virtual quiz!) so looking at it on a much larger screen - definitely a Sparrowhawk- as the others said - I’ll have another look at the harrier.

I’m not sure how much more helpful the 4th image is but looking at the 2nd image on a larger screen, I still see only the very tips of the outer primaries darker against the light with the base and median parts of the feathers pale with (light =variable) barring. I’m checking Forsman’s Flight Identification of Raptors and can say the following: The pale, lightly barred outer fingers is supposed to be diagnostic for Pallid but really on this image it’s hard to be certain what’s taking place. It could be just light but then why are the very tips of the fingers dark and not the whole finger in image 2? Most juvenile Montagu’s show uniformly dark fingers. But this variable though in both species. ( The white spot under the eye typically joins the gape line in Pallid, so the amount of white - again a variable feature - does not rule out Pallid.). Face pattern again is variable, some Pallids have quite a plain face.

I would just add in image 2, I have the impression of a comparatively heavy bird cf Montagu’s and the arm looks about the same length as the hand (Montagu’s have a slightly longer hand than the arm.

While it’s great you got these shots, I think there maybe not enough detail to pin it down to either harrier sp

 

[julienl]

I would have never thought 3) was a Sparrowhawk...

Great thing I asked for the harrier. I was just gonna call it a Montagu's because it is much more common in this area. I am going to ask a friend, he might have better photos.

 

[Richard Prior]

I would have never thought 3) was a Sparrowhawk...

Great thing I asked for the harrier. I was just gonna call it a Montagu's because it is much more common in this area. I am going to ask a friend, he might have better photos.

Good idea, because I don’t think Montagu’s can be excluded from your photos, where exactly did you see it?

 

[julienl]

Good idea, because I don’t think Montagu’s can be excluded from your photos, where exactly did you see it?

We saw it in la Plaine de Crau, which is a dry and rocky plain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crau

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Great thing I asked for the harrier. I was just gonna call it a Montagu's because it is much more common in this area. I am going to ask a friend, he might have better photos.

Thanks Julien - as Tom said, a Monty’s is much more likely on range but for the reasons stated, I think Pallid is a possibility and should be ruled out to be certain. Pallid’s are known for having a very large post breeding dispersal so this time of the year, it is not a big surprise when we have some scarce westerly movement as they migrate to Africa - a few are almost certainly taking a route through Northern Spain. (There was one over Guernsey on 15th September and we have had several moving through SE England recently- one yesterday too).

 

[Richard Prior]

We saw it in la Plaine de Crau, which is a dry and rocky plain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crau

A great birding spot, it must be 15 years or more since I last was there!
I had a look on Faune-paca, there were one or two young Montys Harriers in the area around your date: https://www.faune-paca.org/index.ph...hercher&mp_item_per_page=20&mp_current_page=2

 

[Deb Burhinus]

A great birding spot, it must be 15 years or more since I last was there!
I had a look on Faune-paca, there were one or two young Montys Harriers in the area around your date: https://www.faune-paca.org/index.ph...hercher&mp_item_per_page=20&mp_current_page=2

Richard, no one is saying this definitely isn’t a Montagu’s and we all agree the location favours it so. However there are some very ambiguous features in the OP/and features that are more Pallid than Harrier so perhaps you have some thoughts on that?

Ps I saw my first ever Montagu’s Harriers (and flamingos!) in the Camargue on a family holiday when I was 12 - one of the favourite holiday locations for my parents

 

[Richard Prior]

Debs,
I can only echo what Tom said up thread really, hopefully Julien’s friend has better images.
There might be the dreaded hybrid option of course, I don’t know whether the male Pallid that has summered further north (in département 51) this year has bred with a Montys or not:eek!:

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Debs,

- There might be the dreaded hybrid option of course, I don’t know whether the male Pallid that has summered further north (in département 51) this year has bred with a Montys or not:eek!:

I find your reference to the dept 51 bird very interesting - I assume it was an adult? The female of the first breeding pair in Spain was a fledgling from the first Dutch breeding record so I wonder whether these are signs they are increasing their range (or even whether prior to digital photography western european records were ‘dismissed as Montagu’s?) but almost certainly there seems to be a migration shift taking birds more frequently through Western Europe/ Spain in particular:

http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/v2/C...n_NE_Iberia_in_March_2015.aspx?s_id=448153747

- yes, they do hybridise but with everything said and done, I think it more likely we are looking at a Montagu’s here rather than a hybrid or Pallid in the greater scheme of things (with the proviso of my niggles )

 

[Richard Prior]

I find your reference to the dept 51 bird very interesting - I assume it was an adult? The female of the first breeding pair in Spain was a fledgling from the first Dutch breeding record so I wonder whether these are signs they are increasing their range (or even whether prior to digital photography western european records were ‘dismissed as Montagu’s?) but almost certainly there seems to be a migration shift taking birds more frequently through Western Europe/ Spain in particular:

http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/v2/C...n_NE_Iberia_in_March_2015.aspx?s_id=448153747

- yes, they do hybridise but with everything said and done, I think it more likely we are looking at a Montagu’s here rather than a hybrid or Pallid in the greater scheme of things (with the proviso of my niggles )

Must check before I post, I was sure there’d been a breeding attempt by Pallid up there in the Champagne Ardenne region but on researching properly on Faune Champagne-Ardenne the male Pallid has (a) only been reported since early August and (b) is a 3rd year bird. Unless other observations have been ‘hidden’ during the breeding period of course which would be normal procedure for a rare species. Lesser mortals such as me will find out in about two years when the Rare Breeding Birds in 2020 report is published!

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Must check before I post, I was sure there’d been a breeding attempt by Pallid up there in the Champagne Ardenne region but on researching properly on Faune Champagne-Ardenne the male Pallid ...is a 3rd year bird. !

This alone doesn’t preclude breeding - AFAIAA they can reach sexual maturity at 2-3 years (before acquiring adult plumage) (although not in August!)

 

[rosbifs]

This would definitely, and correctly, be suppressed. I thought it was somewhere near Nantes though.

One pair bred in Spain last year and Holland the year before. Best not to know more.....