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Nikon SE and Zeiss SF 8x32 comparison. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paultricounty
- Start date
dries1
Member
If it bothers you perhaps look at another manufacturer, there must be other 8X30s lightweight with good optics out there.
Binocollector
Well-known member
The solution is to buy vintage 
.
The only difference are the coatings. Light transmission is overrated.
. The only difference are the coatings. Light transmission is overrated
.
It shouldn't be IMO...Nikon USA is less than useless. They've been telling people for years that the EDG are discontinued because the MHG are better, both statements are 100% untrue. It sounds like that's the standard line they give to people about the Monarch 5's and 7's, to confuse them....
Not sure why B&H has that bit about MHG & China on the website, I noticed it also, it's just a mistake. They're a huge company with many inaccuracies on the website IMO
Okay, if I decide to go with and 8x30-class bin, then I'll check with B&H and ask CS to open a box and tell me what it says on the barrel.
OTOH, however, I'm more likely to buy a set of Leica 8x20 UV or or SV 7x15 Curio, as that's a hole in the collection that remains unfilled.
Thanks.
The Leica 8x20 UV was out of stock at B&H so I backordered it, and based upon many good mentions, I bought and took delivery of a Nikon ProStaff 8x25 ATB. Even further off topic (sorry), I'm impressed with the small Nikons, and now have to consider if I really need wunderglass if 8x25 reverse porro is this good at less than $130 US.
The 7-8x30-33 will likely be next - at some point, anyway.
Paultricounty
Well-known member
Update and bad news! Nikon Monarch HG’s (the whole line) are now made in China. $1000 binoculars now being made in peoples republic, Nikons top of the line. I knew it was coming , I didn’t think it was going to be this soon. Who’s next?
Only took me two weeks and six replies of email correspondence to finally get a straight answer, had too elevate my request for info two levels up. To me it appears obvious they didn’t want to answer the question directly, no shocker there for Nikon. Maybe buyers should start questioning about the EDG’s.
Paul
Only took me two weeks and six replies of email correspondence to finally get a straight answer, had too elevate my request for info two levels up. To me it appears obvious they didn’t want to answer the question directly, no shocker there for Nikon. Maybe buyers should start questioning about the EDG’s.
Paul
Attachments
Are you wondering about this? Or complaining? Or both? Or afraid that this will kill Western and Japanese optics companies (which is already happening since quite some time)? Or??
Paultricounty
Well-known member
Not wondering, complaining. Not necessarily afraid this will kill western and Japanese companies, it was coming and unavoidable, for multiple reasons.
Don’t want to get political and upset the woke , or invite the anti-woke. I (as many) prefer and choose other countries of manufacture, at least for now in the current environment.
Will Swarovski, Zeiss and Leica sell the same amount when they’re all made in China at $2000 to $3000, I wonder.
Paul
Paultricounty
Well-known member
That’s what I’m expecting. I’ll let you know next week when I take a look at one from B&H.Or perhaps "Designed by Nikon"?
Paul
Binocollector
Well-known member
If they'd at least lower the price.
But why buy a 1k$/€ MiC when I can get similar items from dozens of other brands, namely all the made in China Kamakura binos (they AFAIK have a plant in China and also in Japan)?
And why this move now? When many other companies leave China for obvious reasons.
@Paultricounty
This has nothing to do whatsoever with "woke" BTW. Why should someone being on the left side of the political spectrum think that an evil dictatorship like China is to be celebrated? I'd avoid all China-made products if I could. (I don't consider myself woke. The word has lost any meaning anyway and was never a thing in Germany in the first place.)
And I'd rather buy made in the Philippines binos over MiC any day of the week.
But why buy a 1k$/€ MiC when I can get similar items from dozens of other brands, namely all the made in China Kamakura binos (they AFAIK have a plant in China and also in Japan)?
And why this move now? When many other companies leave China for obvious reasons.
@Paultricounty
This has nothing to do whatsoever with "woke" BTW. Why should someone being on the left side of the political spectrum think that an evil dictatorship like China is to be celebrated? I'd avoid all China-made products if I could. (I don't consider myself woke. The word has lost any meaning anyway and was never a thing in Germany in the first place.)
And I'd rather buy made in the Philippines binos over MiC any day of the week.
There are 3 things at play here....
1. Politics. Some hate China, some hate the US, some hate Russia, some hate Israel, some hate Iran, some hate North Korea, some hate the UK, some hate Ireland, ....etc there are arguments that can be made against each. Whether the arguments are accepted as valid is dependent on your own perspective.
2. Technical considerations. Optical products can be manufactured by anyone in any country. These are not scientific breaking or classified technologies, with very high cost or technology entry barriers. China has the capability to produce very high quality products and today is the primary producer of many that we all use daily. I could question the quality and capability and technical competence of many other countries. The only case I can think off regarding technical differentiation is for materials or processes, such as proprietary coatings. It is quite possible that some individual companies now have the expertise above that of the seller...... thus this improved product is sold under multiple different names. This transfer of technical knowledge is common down the food chain, which long term changes the dynamics.
3. Perceptions. Rarely logical evaluation and objective decision making is used. Personal preferences come into play and are actually very visible during BF 'debates'.
To me it is unsurprising that Nikon have done this and it is also unsurprising that they have keep it under wraps. I would also expect that other sellers to will do the same. .... it's a well trodden business practice in a global economy.
Without this type of competition, the products would have been made locally, cost more and not improved to the same degree over time.
There is a reason why the US, UK and many others produce few products today.... they can't compete on price, quality etc.
1. Politics. Some hate China, some hate the US, some hate Russia, some hate Israel, some hate Iran, some hate North Korea, some hate the UK, some hate Ireland, ....etc there are arguments that can be made against each. Whether the arguments are accepted as valid is dependent on your own perspective.
2. Technical considerations. Optical products can be manufactured by anyone in any country. These are not scientific breaking or classified technologies, with very high cost or technology entry barriers. China has the capability to produce very high quality products and today is the primary producer of many that we all use daily. I could question the quality and capability and technical competence of many other countries. The only case I can think off regarding technical differentiation is for materials or processes, such as proprietary coatings. It is quite possible that some individual companies now have the expertise above that of the seller...... thus this improved product is sold under multiple different names. This transfer of technical knowledge is common down the food chain, which long term changes the dynamics.
3. Perceptions. Rarely logical evaluation and objective decision making is used. Personal preferences come into play and are actually very visible during BF 'debates'.
To me it is unsurprising that Nikon have done this and it is also unsurprising that they have keep it under wraps. I would also expect that other sellers to will do the same. .... it's a well trodden business practice in a global economy.
Without this type of competition, the products would have been made locally, cost more and not improved to the same degree over time.
There is a reason why the US, UK and many others produce few products today.... they can't compete on price, quality etc.
Binocollector
Well-known member
@exup
No, what's at play here is that Nikon simply raises the profit margin by charging the same for a model that is now made in China. And the fact that there is already a ton of pretty decent made in China binos for about half the price. So why buy a MHG now?
The only argument for buying MiC products is the price.
Of course quality control is also a major concern.
I'm simply not paying 1k for a China made bino. Simple as that.
I don't see the quality. Even a humble Kenko-made Fujinon KF, made in the Philippines, is still optically way better than a Svbony for instance.
Of course when Nikon has their own factory, optics will be the same.
Still I don't see the extra value of a China made MHG for 1k over a China made Kamakura bino for half that. That's not "perception" but a very simple logical consideration.
It's value for money that's the issue here. And greed by the companies.
BTW - I don't "hate China". I hate fascist regimes that regularly threaten their neighbors and play sabre rattling games with the whole world. But that's the government and not the people.
Edit: and also - no, optical products cannot be "manufactured by anyone in any country". At least not to the same specs and quality unless the same major players are involved (which is the case this time but not when just "any" Chinese company, often with disregard for I. P. or patents, steals designs and churns out inferior products).
Also - the claim that Europe, the US or other countries "cannot compete with the quality" must be a bad joke. They annihilate China when it comes to quality. But that has its price.
No, what's at play here is that Nikon simply raises the profit margin by charging the same for a model that is now made in China. And the fact that there is already a ton of pretty decent made in China binos for about half the price. So why buy a MHG now?
The only argument for buying MiC products is the price.
Of course quality control is also a major concern.
I'm simply not paying 1k for a China made bino. Simple as that.
I don't see the quality. Even a humble Kenko-made Fujinon KF, made in the Philippines, is still optically way better than a Svbony for instance.
Of course when Nikon has their own factory, optics will be the same.
Still I don't see the extra value of a China made MHG for 1k over a China made Kamakura bino for half that. That's not "perception" but a very simple logical consideration.
It's value for money that's the issue here. And greed by the companies.
BTW - I don't "hate China". I hate fascist regimes that regularly threaten their neighbors and play sabre rattling games with the whole world. But that's the government and not the people.
Edit: and also - no, optical products cannot be "manufactured by anyone in any country". At least not to the same specs and quality unless the same major players are involved (which is the case this time but not when just "any" Chinese company, often with disregard for I. P. or patents, steals designs and churns out inferior products).
Also - the claim that Europe, the US or other countries "cannot compete with the quality" must be a bad joke. They annihilate China when it comes to quality. But that has its price.
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@Binocollector
It is quite possible that Nikon want to either improve margin or protect the existing margin on the HG .... with rising inflation and global costs.
This is a standard management action that all companies consider in changing times. Moving production elsewhere will not automatically result in any affect on product performance. The drop in performance is a perceived affect, yet to be proven.
In terms of margins ...... Swaro, Zeiss and Leica are the premium brands that without doubt will have the highest margins. IMHO Nikon optics is expected to achieve a medium margin and companies like SVBONY will have the lowest margins and thus the opportunity to provide good value for money for the consumer. Also note that some brands eg Zeiss already have products made in countries such as China .... AFAIK Terra, Conquest HD... are examples and most likely done to generate an acceptably high margin at a particular price point (just as Nikon are about to do too).
Also note, that the members on this forum have little visibility of any supply chains for optics manufacturers. It is possible to purchase components from Tier 1/2/3 suppliers anywhere in the world and then assemble in a high value country and claim 'made in xxxx'. Or alternatively, obscure it further by stating 'Designed in xxxx'
Global manufacturing is a murky world and few companies are 'open and honest', often hiding behind business confidentially as the reason.
For interest, here is Helly Hansen and their declaration of global suppliers (I found it as an honest approach):
I am not aware of particular patents or IP applicable to consumer optics sold today....perhaps you are right and have some facts regarding what particular products or process are IP protected and thus command an elevated selling price??
I don't want to argue on this, you have your perceptions and can decide what to expend your cash on. I have lived inside the world of engineering development and manufacture for nearly 40 years and have watched with interest how the business practices have evolved over that time. There have been huge changes and today perception is far from reality, especially in consumer goods. Looks to me that consumer optics are seeing the same evolutions.
It is quite possible that Nikon want to either improve margin or protect the existing margin on the HG .... with rising inflation and global costs.
This is a standard management action that all companies consider in changing times. Moving production elsewhere will not automatically result in any affect on product performance. The drop in performance is a perceived affect, yet to be proven.
In terms of margins ...... Swaro, Zeiss and Leica are the premium brands that without doubt will have the highest margins. IMHO Nikon optics is expected to achieve a medium margin and companies like SVBONY will have the lowest margins and thus the opportunity to provide good value for money for the consumer. Also note that some brands eg Zeiss already have products made in countries such as China .... AFAIK Terra, Conquest HD... are examples and most likely done to generate an acceptably high margin at a particular price point (just as Nikon are about to do too).
Also note, that the members on this forum have little visibility of any supply chains for optics manufacturers. It is possible to purchase components from Tier 1/2/3 suppliers anywhere in the world and then assemble in a high value country and claim 'made in xxxx'. Or alternatively, obscure it further by stating 'Designed in xxxx'
Global manufacturing is a murky world and few companies are 'open and honest', often hiding behind business confidentially as the reason.
For interest, here is Helly Hansen and their declaration of global suppliers (I found it as an honest approach):
I am not aware of particular patents or IP applicable to consumer optics sold today....perhaps you are right and have some facts regarding what particular products or process are IP protected and thus command an elevated selling price??
I don't want to argue on this, you have your perceptions and can decide what to expend your cash on. I have lived inside the world of engineering development and manufacture for nearly 40 years and have watched with interest how the business practices have evolved over that time. There have been huge changes and today perception is far from reality, especially in consumer goods. Looks to me that consumer optics are seeing the same evolutions.
Given that the cost of paying skilled European and Japanese workers binoculars is one of the most commonly complained about topics on this forum, it's easy to see why Nikon has decided to make the HG series in a lower cost location. As one of our regulars is fond of noting, Nikon sell lots of binoculars. If enough buyers vote with their feet and they sell a lot fewer binoculars I suppose they might have a rethink...
That's weird. I bought a MHG in December and it still says that it's made in Japan. The case is made in China though, perhaps they read that and got confused?
I am sorry but I don't believe any of this . It seems to me that most people if not all that answer the phones at Nikon , don't have a clue about any thing .
I will believe it when I see an MHG with made in China clearly marked on it . Until then I will believe that the MHG is made in Japan and the rest of the monarch line is made in China .
I must say that China is capable of making fine optics . I had a nice set of Televue Nagler eyepieces consisting of T6's,T5's and a T4 . The most expensive of them at the time were made in China , the 26mm T5 being one of them , the rest made in Japan. QC monitored by Televue .
Binocollector
Well-known member
