Little Owl Taxonomy (Turkey) (2 Viewers)

[Binocularface]

Hi,

I have got myself completely confused over Little Owl Taxonomy in Turkey! The attached images were taken within 40km of each other in the Birecik area. The darker bird seems to fit Athene glaux indigena or Athene noctua indigena (depending which taxonomy you prefer) whereas the paler bird seems to fit Athene glaux lilith or Athene noctua lilith (depending on which taxonomy you use). We also observed a darker (more typical looking bird) much further west near Adana which I am not sure about (no pics of this one).

So I guess my questions are:

1. Is lilith seperable from indigena?
2. Does lilith occur in South Eastern Turkey?
3. What form are the birds from further west likely to be?

I have looked at Kirwan et al and it has left me more confused :eek!:

Regards
Tristan

 

[njlarsen]

Clements has:
Athene noctua indigena Balkans to Turkey, s Russia, Transcaucasia and sw Siberia
Athene noctua lilith Cyprus; inland Middle East from se Turkey to s Sinai

These are the only two subspecies mentioning the word Turkey

Niels

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Clements has:
Athene noctua indigena Balkans to Turkey, s Russia, Transcaucasia and sw Siberia
Athene noctua lilith Cyprus; inland Middle East from se Turkey to s Sinai

These are the only two subspecies mentioning the word Turkey

Niels

By http://ibc.lynxeds.com/species/little-owl-athene-noctua

indigena - Albania, SE Yugoslavia, S & E Romania, S Ukraine, S Russia, Caucasus and SW Siberia, S to Crete, Turkey (except SE) and Middle East (S to Haifa).
lilith - Cyprus, and inland Middle East from SE Turkey S to S Sinai.

By Master_IOC_list_v3.0b http://www.worldbirdnames.org/Master_IOC_list_v3.0b_ssp.xls
indigena - Romania to Greece through Ukraine and Turkey east to s Russia
lilith - Cyprus, s Turkey to Iraq and the Sinai (Egypt)

 

[njlarsen]

And from König and Weick: Lilith Owlet a separate monotypic species that has a range quite different from given by the Clements spreadsheet: From west end of Cyprus, go straight north to Turkey, and make a band maybe 200k wide to the east from that point until almost straight north of the persian gulf. From there, south to the northernmost point in the gulf, include all of the Arabian peninsula, eastern half of Sinai, and all of Israel and Libanon. (my own reading from the included map).
Little Owl, indigena is both west and north of Lilith with some overlap in the area north of Libanon and Syria, almost down to the Persian Gulf.

Lilith is described as having much smaller talons, rim of facial disk indistinct; little owl a much stouter species. Crown paler brown with some indistinct paler streaks. Looking at the drawings, your palest bird looks ok for Lilith, while the other probably is indigena. The even darker bird you saw might still be indigena, no reason to define another subspecies if the variation is clinal.

Niels

 

[SzimiStyle]

The bird usually seen in Birecik, Turkey (SE) is belonging to A. n. lilith.
Birds seen in Greece belongs to A. n. indigena. Western Turkey birds should still belong to indigena.

Best, Szimi

 

[Larry Sweetland]

Is llith the only form in Israel then?

 

[lewis20126]

And from König and Weick: Lilith Owlet a separate monotypic species that has a range quite different from given by the Clements spreadsheet: From west end of Cyprus, go straight north to Turkey, and make a band maybe 200k wide to the east from that point until almost straight north of the persian gulf. From there, south to the northernmost point in the gulf, include all of the Arabian peninsula, eastern half of Sinai, and all of Israel and Libanon. (my own reading from the included map).
Little Owl, indigena is both west and north of Lilith with some overlap in the area north of Libanon and Syria, almost down to the Persian Gulf.

Lilith is described as having much smaller talons, rim of facial disk indistinct; little owl a much stouter species. Crown paler brown with some indistinct paler streaks. Looking at the drawings, your palest bird looks ok for Lilith, while the other probably is indigena. The even darker bird you saw might still be indigena, no reason to define another subspecies if the variation is clinal.

Niels

I suspect that the König and Weick range is rather vaguely defined and rather too extensive - is it I wonder based entirely on specimen locales? I saw a medium dark bird within the described range (just north of Sifflike) which I cannot imagine was "Lilith Owlet". As already noted above, presumably BF's paler bird is one, but I doubt the range is as widespread as K&W indicate. On habitat alone I suspect its range would mirror those of other sub-desert species such as Desert Finch, See-see etc and thus Bircek (and south) would be the best place for it - in Turkey.

Cheers, alan

 

[Binocularface]

Hi,

Thanks for all the information.
I guess given the clinal nature of this species group any 'Little Owl' west and North of Birecik (within Turkey) are likely to be 'Byzantine Owl' (A. n(g) indigena). It seems that Lilith's Owlet (A. n(g) lilith) can occur within the same range as indigena (or at least on the edge of overlap) but seems to be more habitat specific.

Interesting (although perhaps not suprising) that CDNA include indigena as a subspecies of Lilith's Owl.

Regards
Tristan

 

[njlarsen]

I suspect that the König and Weick range is rather vaguely defined and rather too extensive - is it I wonder based entirely on specimen locales? I saw a medium dark bird within the described range (just north of Sifflike) which I cannot imagine was "Lilith Owlet". As already noted above, presumably BF's paler bird is one, but I doubt the range is as widespread as K&W indicate. On habitat alone I suspect its range would mirror those of other sub-desert species such as Desert Finch, See-see etc and thus Bircek (and south) would be the best place for it - in Turkey.

Cheers, alan

Alan, please note that I said that in the north end of the range there is overlap between what K&W considers a separate species Lilith Owlet and the Little Owl (mostly indigena if I remember correctly). I have no first hand knowledge and cannot do anything more than tell you what the book says, but if K&W is correct, then I would expect that the birds within the overlap segregate by habitat

Niels

 

[GMK]

So I guess my questions are:

1. Is lilith seperable from indigena?
2. Does lilith occur in South Eastern Turkey?
3. What form are the birds from further west likely to be?

I have looked at Kirwan et al and it has left me more confused

This issue poses an interesting question, and I wouldn't claim to necessarily have the answers, but I find it remarkable that you find my book confusing on this matter. If you take the first sentence of the first section (dealing with Subspecies and taxonomy), it commences:

"A. n. indigena across much of the country, except the southeast, where replaced by the very pale sandy-brown race, lilith..."

Could I get any clearer? Southeast Anatolia is mapped on p. 44.

I am also unsure as to why you consider that your two images show radically different "beasts". The left-hand image shows an individual that is perhaps rather more streaked below than "classic" lilith and not perhaps as pale-faced as some, but probably within the usual range of variation of this taxon (I confess it's a while since I studied this issue, but regardless of that I don't see one individual as being dramatically darker than the other). You should also bear in mind that, given the behaviour of these owls in such regions as southeast Turkey, microscale variation in overall ground colour is almost inevitably going to occur, as with other taxa such as Burhinus and many Alaudidae.

I did point out in the book, and this assertion I would stand by, that lilith or lilith-type birds occur much further north in eastern Turkey than suggested in other literature. The notion that lilith and indigena segregate by habitat is very likely nonsense. I have observed lilith-type birds in a wide range of habitats and altitudes. Like Roselaar, in referring to lilith and bactriania, I'd be surprised if lilith and indigena don't intergrade. It's worth bearing in mind that indigena too is a somewhat paler race than most West European birders are familiar with.

Some have postulated here, based on non-peer-reviewed "literature" (i.e. internet checklists) that lilith also occurs in Cyprus. Anyone that knows the standard, detailed literature on WP birds knows that this is an issue that is still far from settled. No author to my knowledge has yet satisfactorily determined which race/s occur on Cyprus. That's one issue that genetics might usefully contribute to.

 

[njlarsen]

One little correction: my reference to lilith as occurring in Cyprus was from König & Weick, not from an internet checklist

Niels

 

[Binocularface]

This issue poses an interesting question, and I wouldn't claim to necessarily have the answers, but I find it remarkable that you find my book confusing on this matter. If you take the first sentence of the first section (dealing with Subspecies and taxonomy), it commences:

"A. n. indigena across much of the country, except the southeast, where replaced by the very pale sandy-brown race, lilith..."

Could I get any clearer? Southeast Anatolia is mapped on p. 44.

I apologise for an offence caused, though I am not sure it warrented such a condescending response.
I should clarify that I did not find your publication confusing. My confusion lies with the varying amount of opinions regarding this taxon. The reason I asked whether lilith occurred in Turkey was related to the dutch classification; I wasn't sure if they considered these pale birds as indigena.

I am also unsure as to why you consider that your two images show radically different "beasts".

I was not certain if they were radically different, hence my questions. In the field they did look radically different, so I thought my query was valid.

Thanks for the detailed response, it has certainly clarified the situation regarding this taxon in Turkey.

Regards
Tristan

 

[GMK]

No "offence" was caused or taken, I merely found it surprising ("remarkable") that you found the text in Kirwan et al. confusing, which was the inference I drew (reasonably, I would suggest) from the wording of your initial post.

I'm pleased that you've taken the time to study what's written therein, that it wasn't after all "confusing" (at least when taken alone) and that my post offered some additional clarification.

As I mentioned, I don't believe that I have all of the answers, or even perhaps many of them, but I am sure that I do have far more experience of Athene noctua in Turkey than most of the proponents for splitting lilith.

 

[Binocularface]

Guy,

Admittedly I should have worded my initial post more contextually. I apologise for my apparent stupidity! Your comments regarding the taxonomy of Little Owl based on your findings/experiences have been very informative. I cannot comment on the experience of those proposing the split of lilith etc but I was under the impression that some supportive DNA work had been carried out? I have not read the relevant paper yet, as I am still trying to attain it.

Regards
Tristan

 

[GMK]

I cannot comment on the experience of those proposing the split of lilith etc but I was under the impression that some supportive DNA work had been carried out?

It has, but genetics should never be taken as the "be all and end all"; molecular data offer just one part of the story. As a classic example of this, if ornithologists and birders took unswerving notice of genetics, then we'd only be recognising a single species of Darwin's finch!

I surely have the relevant Little Owl genetics paper somewhere. I'll see whether I can find it.

 

[Binocularface]

I surely have the relevant Little Owl genetics paper somewhere. I'll see whether I can find it.

Many thanks Guy; I have managed to obtain a copy of the paper today. An interesting read, but clearly still much work to be carried out on the taxon.

 

[Jacana]

I saw a couple of Little Owls on Cyprus this spring and they didn't appear as pale/sandy as photos i've seen of other lilith specimens...

 

[mb1848]

This does not have anything to do with Turkey but in trying to find if a subspecies had been described in Cyprus, the old ornithologists were pretty good at describing lots of subspecies after all; I looked at the original description of A. noctua:
STRIX Noctua,
Diagnos Pallide rufa , fuscisque maculis.
longitudinaliter variegata,
Irides flavee.
In Museum p Carnioliae indígena, et in sylvis

circa Labacum copiosa,
Statura Columbae,

SCREECH-OWL at night as
Diagnos pale red, fuscisque with spots.
longitudinally variegated in
Iris golden hue.
In the Museum personium, Inner Carnioliae , (now Slovenia) and in the woods in

Labacum (Ljubljana) about the abundant,
Very tall and Columbae,

http://books.google.com/books?id=yOoVAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
On page (iii) the author spells it Strix Nochia but on page 22 it is Strix Noctua. Does this require a first reviser? (This leads me to one of my questions I have: What is the difference between misspelling which is required by the Code to be fixed but improper or wrong Latinization which is not required to be fixed?)
I just assumed the original description was from northern Europe . This is pretty southeast? I still have not seen a subspecies described from Cyprus. Sorry if this is off topic.

 

[MJB]

Hi, I have got myself completely confused over Little Owl Taxonomy in Turkey! The attached images were taken within 40km of each other in the Birecik area. The darker bird seems to fit Athene glaux indigena or Athene noctua indigena (depending which taxonomy you prefer) whereas the paler bird seems to fit Athene glaux lilith or Athene noctua lilith (depending on which taxonomy you use). We also observed a darker (more typical looking bird) much further west near Adana which I am not sure about (no pics of this one).
So I guess my questions are:

1. Is lilith seperable from indigena?
2. Does lilith occur in South Eastern Turkey?
3. What form are the birds from further west likely to be?

I have looked at Kirwan et al and it has left me more confused :eek!:
Regards
Tristan

Tristan,
I have entered this discussion later than I would have liked, but being away from home and my references did make me cautious!

OSME for some time have been working on an aspect of this very issue - the distribution and identity of Little Owl taxa and populations within the OSME Region (www.osme.org) - by preparing a Gallery on the OSME website to which anyone soon (we hope, once testing of the Gallery is completed, by the autumn) will be able to upload Little Owl images (and this species only). We will be asking for as exact locations as possible for the images - GPS or lat/long to 6 figures is possible - and the date the image was taken.

My own interest was sparked in Cyprus by noting the considerable difference in appearance of lowland/coastal Little Owls (dark-plumaged) and those holding territory on scrubby hillsides. I make no claim as to the certain taxonomic identity of those I've seen. As Guy says, microscale variation should be expected, but what OSME hopes is that the images on the OSME website might provide some kind of evidence to assist in identifying clines, geographical differences, and perhaps separation of taxa.

The images may help Michael Wink's research at Heidelberg into this species, or they may simply confirm that plumage colour is indeed of less help than anticipated. I also agree with Guy's warning that DNA data so far comprise much less than the full picture of relationships between taxa. Indeed, Michael Wink has advised that there are subtleties apparent whose explanation needs much more data.

Much vital information can also be obtained from legally-obtained Little Owl feathers and blood samples. Within any current legislation on the obtaining, handling and transport of feathers, such samples with full location information may be sent to:

Prof. Dr. Michael Wink
Institute of Pharmacy & Molecular Biotechnology
Director Division Biology
Heidelberg University;
Im Neuenheimer Feld 364;
D-69120 Heidelberg; Germany

Advice on this aspect may be sought from: Email [email protected]

I will be travelling extensively over the next several months, but on the matter of the OSME website Gallery for Little Owl images, I would be happy to be contacted by Personal Message to inform anyone as to when it is declared operational after the testing period.
MJB

 

[Binocularface]

Many thanks MJB,

The OSME gallery sounds like a really useful project. I would personally be very interested to hear when it is up and running.

Regards
Tristan