Kowa 883 - best arca swiss plate? (1 Viewer)

[Tringa45]

John, what arca swiss plate will work well with the 883 foot without modifications?

Rob.

Rob,

The centre of gravity of the 883 is just about directly above the foot, so you don't really need a long plate for balance in the horizontal and don't need to apply a lot of friction. I prefer to fix the plate directly with a 3/8"x16 screw rather than a 1/4"x20 screw via the adapter and the anti-rotation pin should be 4,5 mm in diameter (the most common size), although a lip on one end of the plate would serve the same purpose.

Your choice, however, will depend on what head you are using because not all safety retention systems are compatible. A loosened clamp could result in the scope crashing onto the ground if head and plate are from different manufacturers. The Berlebach 553 is IMO the ideal Arca-Swiss compatible head but it's rather expensive. I have its predecessor, the 552, on an old and heavy Gitzo Studex and the lighter and cheaper 510 on my lightweight tripod. The 510 also provides a very stable base and is excellently made but lacks a counterbalance. The Sirui VA-5 is also Arca-Swiss compatible and might be adequate for the 883. The Gitzo GHF2W is good too but the supplied plate lacks an anti-rotation pin, so you would have to look for alternatives.

John

 

[WRL]

@Tringa45: Thank you for the information about an additional option. I know from personal experience that BERLEBACH is very, very customer oriented.

However, I still have reservations about the suggested fix for my specific use case. It is not so much about "secure fit", it is about "no movement allowed". The KOWA 883 "holes" are about 4,90 to 4.95 mm in diameter (measured with a vernier caliper). A 4.5 mm dia pin would sill have some possible play. The BERLEBACH plate has two rubber strips facing the scope's foot side. So even thightening with a 3/8 inch srew would not really result in a rotation free fit, I am afraid. But that is necessary in my case, though, since I am placing (sometimes) the scope and a camera in parallel (because of looking through the scope while shooting photos) on the same tripod head (utilizing a BERLEBACH's "160 twin" adapter). The small residual "altitude" error (between scope and camera) is compensated by certain measures on the camera's foot, only. This setup assures elemination of one error source (scope) at least.

So your solution is a valuable advice and will certainly work for many. In addition, it is "elegant" as it doesn't need any DIY modifications.

 

[rpg51]

The "no movement allowed" quality is what I am trying to achieve as well. If there is even the slightest movement possible, I find that the single screw (actually bolt) that is holding the scope to the plate or head loosens with use. I know I am exacerbating the situation by using the body of the scope, rather than the video handle, to pan and tilt.

It sure is frustrating that we have to futz around like this to put a scope solidly and safely on a tripod. You would think that scope manufacturers would get this sorted out.

 

[Hauksen]

Hi,

However, I still have reservations about the suggested fix for my specific use case. It is not so much about "secure fit", it is about "no movement allowed". The KOWA 883 "holes" are about 4,90 to 4.95 mm in diameter (measured with a vernier caliper). A 4.5 mm dia pin would sill have some possible play.

I guess the proper solution would be to have a (truncated) conical hole and a matching conical anti-rotation pin, spring-loaded, to take away the lost motion that is pretty much inevitable with cylindrical pins.

Of course, that's not a simple modifiction for the consumer to make :-(

Regards,

Henning

 

[Alexis Powell]

As I wrote about on another recent thread, I think the best solution (based on 10+ years experience using them on a daily to weekly basis), particularly for a person who uses several heads with both Arca-type and the wider Gitzo/Manfrotto/Sirui-type sliding plate clamps, is a plate adapter, such as those currently available from iShoot via eBay or Amazon. In the past, these were also available from Gitzo (way overpriced) and Desmond. These adapters allow use of a Arca-type plate on a head with the Gitzo/Manfrotto/Sirui-type clamp. So buy a good non-rotating Arca-type plate and one or more of these adapters. They are very easy to use. Yes, the items ship from China and don't ship overnight, but they'll get to you (in USA) in a month or so. No big deal for an item that will be used for many years or decades. I've ordered quite a few small accessory items from China in the past couple months and most have arrived within 2 weeks. Here's a link to these adapters. I use the short type but you might prefer the long type.

Gitzo to Arca Plate Adapter for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for Gitzo to Arca Plate Adapter at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

As for good non-rotating Arca-type plates, I have a variety from Really Right Stuff, Kirk, and Desmond in use. For the budget minded, I don't think you can go wrong with the ones from Desmond. They are very well made, match the same standard used by RRS, Kirk, and most others, and come in a wide range of lengths so you can get exactly what you need. Here's a link to a good length for many scopes, but note the options for others on this web page:

Desmond DPL-150 Long Lens Quick Release Plate (150mm)

Buy Desmond DPL-150 Long Lens Quick Release Plate (150mm) featuring Arca-Type Compatible, Aluminum Construction, 1/4"-20 Screw, Two Safety Stop Screws, Twin Backstop Flanges, Includes Allen Keys. Review Desmond DPL-150

www.bhphotovideo.com

I think complaints about lack of perfect uniformity among Arca-type plates are overblown. Stick to RRS, Kirk, Desmond, or most Chinese-made copies and products (e.g. from Neewer) and you'll have no problems. Certainly, you'll have no problems if you use a screw-tightened Arca-type clamp. If you use a quick-release type clamp (as I do, sometimes--mine is from RRS), I've heard you could have issues with some no-name or European brand (including Novoflex and actual Arca-Swiss brand) plates, but I've never had any problems whatsoever with anything I've ever tried. If you are on a budget, buy Desmond and you can't go wrong with compatibility or quality.

For those who use Gitzo/Manfrotto/Sirui-type heads and who do not use any heads with Arca-type clamps, another option is to modify a plate from one of those brands to make it non-rotating and secure. I did that with a Manfrotto sliding plate by removing the rubber bits (to prevent loosening) and then using a Dremel-type tool to cut a sunken custom-fit flat area for the tripod foot at one end of the plate, leaving a lip on two sides to resist rotation. It works perfectly.

A very few scopes have both 1/4 and 3/8 inch sockets. With those scopes, use both screws and a sliding plate with a central channel (as most do) that will allow use of two different screws simultaneously.

--AP

 

[Alexis Powell]

Would this plate maybe work?

Acratech Quick Release Plate for Telephoto Lenses (3")

Buy Acratech Quick Release Plate for Telephoto Lenses (3") featuring Arca-Swiss Clamp Compatible, Fits Lenses with 3" Foot, 2 x 1/4"-20 Threaded Mounting Stud, Machined from 6061 T-6 Aluminum, Satin Black Anodized Finish, Made in the USA. Review Acratech null

www.bhphotovideo.com

Work to do what? Whatever it can do, the Desmond sliding plates (several choices of length) can do as well or better and at lower cost. Just add a second screw (or order the 150 mm length, which comes with two screws).

Desmond DPL-100 Long Lens Quick Release Plate (100mm)

Buy Desmond DPL-100 Long Lens Quick Release Plate (100mm) featuring Arca-Type Compatible, Aluminum Construction, 1/4"-20 Screw, Two Safety Stop Screws, Twin Backstop Flanges, Includes Allen Keys. Review Desmond DPL-100

www.bhphotovideo.com

--AP

 

[Tringa45]

The "no movement allowed" quality is what I am trying to achieve as well. If there is even the slightest movement possible, I find that the single screw (actually bolt) that is holding the scope to the plate or head loosens with use. I know I am exacerbating the situation by using the body of the scope, rather than the video handle, to pan and tilt.

It sure is frustrating that we have to futz around like this to put a scope solidly and safely on a tripod. You would think that scope manufacturers would get this sorted out.

Rob,

I think I understand the problem now. Your Sirui VH-10 probably came with either a BP-90 or VP-90 quick release plate. Neither of these has an anti-rotation pin, so it's no wonder that the plate loosens.
Try to get a VH-125 plate like this: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1nJf0...s-International-Standard-Screws-Safe-Fast.jpg and attach it to the 883 via the 3/8" screw.

John

 

[Bill Atwood]

The Gitzo GHF2W is good too but the supplied plate lacks an anti-rotation pin, so you would have to look for alternatives.

John

The plate for the Swaro PTH head fits the GHF2W and can be purchased separately. I got one for my GHF2W and it worked well for the 883 although it still allowed for a tiny bit of rotation.

 

[Borjam]

I use my 883 with a Manfrotto plate for the MVH500. Although the anti rotation pin socket is not in the right place for a proper balance, you can still install it so that it lies in the channel for the screw. It won’t fall through the channel and it will prevent rotation effectively.

 

[rpg51]

Rob,

I think I understand the problem now. Your Sirui VH-10 probably came with either a BP-90 or VP-90 quick release plate. Neither of these has an anti-rotation pin, so it's no wonder that the plate loosens.
Try to get a VH-125 plate like this: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1nJf0...s-International-Standard-Screws-Safe-Fast.jpg and attach it to the 883 via the 3/8" screw.

John

No, the plate that came with my VH-10x head does have a pin. That is not the issue I don't think. I honestly do not understand why it rotates except that it seems the central bolt lossens, and then the pin releases, and then you are in trouble. It may be that the problem is caused by my habit of using the scope body to pan.

But, I think I have it sorted out. The problem is that the plate that came with the VH-10x head does not stay put tightly on the foot of the scope. Today I received a Sirui MP-20 Quick Release Plate Adapter. I screwed the adapter it to the VH-10x plate, and it fits fine and holds tight. Then I attached the Sirui TY-70A arca-swiss plate the scope. It fits tightly. Zero slipage, at least in the living room. That particular Sirui arca swiss plate holds good and tight on the Kowa foot. The whole thing goes together nice and safe and tight. No worries. It adds about 1/4 inch to the height of the whole support system. The other thing I like is that it all fits the smaller (but excellent) Sirui VA-5 fluid head because that head takes the Sirui TY-70A plate perfectly. There are probably other ways to do this - but it works.

Mission accomplished. Assuming it holds up to field use, it looks like a 99 is NOT in my future. Probably best because my retirement gear acquisition program is moving onto to cameras and lens. If you thought scope and binos were expensive, take a look at the modern camera bodies and high end lenses. Yikes. The expense department manager in my home is about to have her mind blown. My end game move is to sell a car. I did pay off the mortgage the other day. That will cut in my favor. But, I am not selling the truck. I must have a pick up.

 

[Bill Atwood]

No, the plate that came with my VH-10x head does have a pin. That is not the issue I don't think. I honestly do not understand why it rotates except that it seems the central bolt lossens, and then the pin releases, and then you are in trouble. It may be that the problem is caused by my habit of using the scope body to pan.

But, I think I have it sorted out. The problem is that the plate that came with the VH-10x head does not stay put tightly on the foot of the scope. Today I received a Sirui MP-20 Quick Release Plate Adapter. I screwed the adapter it to the VH-10x plate, and it fits fine and holds tight. Then I attached the Sirui TY-70A arca-swiss plate the scope. It fits tightly. Zero slipage, at least in the living room. That particular Sirui arca swiss plate holds good and tight on the Kowa foot. The whole thing goes together nice and safe and tight. No worries. It adds about 1/4 inch to the height of the whole support system. The other thing I like is that it all fits the smaller (but excellent) Sirui VA-5 fluid head because that head takes the Sirui TY-70A plate perfectly. There are probably other ways to do this - but it works.

Mission accomplished. Assuming it holds up to field use, it looks like a 99 is NOT in my future. Probably best because my retirement gear acquisition program is moving onto to cameras and lens. If you thought scope and binos were expensive, take a look at the modern camera bodies and high end lenses. Yikes. The expense department manager in my home is about to have her mind blown. My end game move is to sell a car. I did pay off the mortgage the other day. That will cut in my favor. But, I am not selling the truck. I must have a pick up.

You can't take it with you! Get the Kowa 99A and Sony a1!

 

[rpg51]

HOLD IT!

Same problem developed in field use. The screw holding the plate to the foot backed out gradually using the scope to pan and tilt the head while doing a bit of moon and star watching last night. Back to the drawing board. My sense is that the problem is probably caused by the fact that I am not using the panning arm that comes with the head. I'll try again using the arm. Maybe a drop of thread lock as well. Also, Alexis, I hear you. I'll order one of those adapters and try it. Its not going to change the mounting screw backing out which is my main problem. But, yes, it looks like perhaps the best solution to adapt the head to arca swiss. Thanks.

Bill - I hear you too! I'm a little tempered because I am not retired yet and I don't have a crystal clear feel for my cash flow during retirement when the day comes.

 

[Hauksen]

Hi,

My sense is that the problem is probably caused by the fact that I am not using the panning arm that comes with the head.

Absolutely. I don't think there's a way to make panning the scope using the scope itself as a grip work without introducing a tight form-fit between scope foot and quick release plate.

If you don't like using the panning arm, I had good success with panning by gripping the head itself. Can't work with a lot of friction as the lever is short, but it felt quite natural with the little Nikon ED50. With the Kowa 883 on the same plate, I didn't like it as much, but it still was sort of feasible. Of course, the ergonomics of this depend a lot on the exact shape of the head.

Regards,

Henning

 

[Alexis Powell]

...The screw holding the plate to the foot backed out gradually using the scope to pan and tilt the head while doing a bit of moon and star watching last night. Back to the drawing board. My sense is that the problem is probably caused by the fact that I am not using the panning arm that comes with the head. I'll try again using the arm. Maybe a drop of thread lock as well. Also, Alexis, I hear you. I'll order one of those adapters and try it. Its not going to change the mounting screw backing out which is my main problem. But, yes, it looks like perhaps the best solution to adapt the head to arca swiss...

Hi rph51,

Unfortunately, you haven't heard me. Or you haven't realized how important some details of my suggestion are for solving your problem.

The screw is backing out because (a) you are too timid about tightening it adequately, (b) the plate has a bit of slop in it, or (c) both of the above. I suspect (c). To solve problem "a", be more aggressive, use some thread locker, or both. To solve problem "b", use a plate that doesn't have any play in its interface. The one you have from Sirui has rubber interface (not good!) and it has a pin that is a bit smaller than the pin receptacle in the scope (not good!). In my experience, pins don't work nearly as well as lips/flanges or custom fits for preventing rotation. That is why I have been suggesting that you get an Arca-type plate from Desmond (see my link above) or RRS or Kirk. These plates have no rubber and rotation is prevented by a lip or flanges/tabs at one end of the plate. Put the Desmond plate on your scope foot, snug the lip against the back of the foot, and tighten the screw firmly (and use threadlock if you like--I don't find it necessary). The plate will work directly in a Sirui VA-5 head. To use it in the VH-10X, get the plate adapter from iShoot that I recommended, slip it onto the Desmond plate (already mounted on the scope), then slip the whole thing into the VH-10X. You shouldn't have any problems with loosening but it wouldn't be a bad thing to check it once in a while (every week or month, depending on frequency of use) just to make sure all is well. Using the scope without the arm is not the problem. The forces you put on it are nothing compared to carrying the scope mounted on the tripod for long periods of time. A good plate interface will be rock solid.

--AP

 

[rpg51]

Thanks AP.

Regarding the details of your recommendation: what am I to do with the second screw when attaching the Desmond plate to the scope foot? The foot on the 883 scope only receives one screw.

 

[Borjam]

And anyway if the plate has a rubbered surface just like the Manfrotto ones the scope will not rotate as long as you tighten the screw properly.

 

[Borjam]

A picture for my explanation.

This is a 500 PLONG plate (not Arca-Swiss but I guess it gives an idea) attached to a Kowa 883.

In red, the socket for the anti rotation pin in the plate, which is useless because it doesn't line up with the anti rotation socket in the scope foot.

In green, the actual position of the anti rotation pin which is in the scope socket. As you can see the pin is not connected to a proper socket, just to the long slit on which you adjust the fixing screw.

The pin does its job because:

- It won't fall through the screw slit. The slit width is the same as the anti rotation socket in the plate.

- It prevents rotation. It doesn't need to prevent longitudinal movement along the slit because that is the job of the screw.

So, the combination of both screw and anti rotation pin (together with the rubberized top cover) make it perfectly solid.

 

[Tringa45]

The screw is backing out because (a) you are too timid about tightening it adequately

Exactly!
I have just googled recommended torques for stainless steel bolts.
They are 75 in-lbs for 1/4"x20 and 240 in-lbs for 3/8"x16.
If secured in aluminium the thread depth should be around 3 thread diameters and scope feet and plates don't get anywhere near this, but you should be perfectly safe in using a third of these values. That is still quite a lot.
Btw, discard the smaller of the two bolts you can't use, i.e. if there's an adapter, throw that out and use the 3/8"x16 bolt.

John

 

[Hauksen]

Exactly!
I have just googled recommended torques for stainless steel bolts.
They are 75 in-lbs for 1/4"x20 and 240 in-lbs for 3/8"x16.
If secured in aluminium the thread depth should be around 3 thread diameters and scope feet and plates don't get anywhere near this, but you should be perfectly safe in using a third of these values. That is still quite a lot.
Btw, discard the smaller of the two bolts you can't use, i.e. if there's an adapter, throw that out and use the 3/8"x16 bolt.

John

Hi John,

If you could share the link to the search results, that would be interesting to me in another US standard related tripod screw issue ...

I just checked the Kowa 883 manual, and unfortunately, there's no recommended torque stated there.

Regards,

Henning

 

[Tringa45]

Hi Henning,

Here's the link:https://www.fastenal.com/content/merch_rules/images/fcom/content-library/Torque-Tension Reference Guide.pdf

I used to work in the automobile industry and IIRC the standard was for one and a half thread depths in cast iron or three thread depths in aluminium.
The blind thread in my Swarovski ATM foot is so shallow that a 3/8" screw bottomed out before the plate was clamped, about two thread turns which is really bad engineering practice.
Consequently the torques in the table are too high, but as Alexis pointed out, they should be high enough for the metal to metal friction of foot and QR plate to carry all loads without shear on the screw or AR pin.
Loads on car wheels are transmitted via the friction with the hub and not by shear on the bolts or studs.

Regards,
John