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Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

Keep it simple! (1 Viewer)

I have bought a lot of optics over the years,
but am retiring today and buying is about over.

my current zeiss 8x32 FL.-close viewing
SW 8.5x42 EL (pre SV),-general viewing
leica 10+15x50 -distant viewing
zeiss dialyt 8x56-low light and night
are very adequate for my current ,
and future needs
my cabela euro 10x32 -hiking -is my most used

so for me I would ask for in binoculars
good optics, sturdy construction, lone life span

edj

Good Luck! in your retirement, Ed. Now you'll have time to increase your lifers count. Lullabelle has about twice as many as you, but she's from a state that's twice as big, so it evens out! ;)

<B>
 
You know, if push came to shove, I think most of us could get by just fine with the selection of binoculars available under $250 or so. At that price point, glare control isn't always the best, and focusers aren't always rock solid, but similar issues can affect even more expensive units too.
 
There are three features in most modern roofs I can without:

1. Very close focusing. I don't need it and it makes the binoculars unnecessarily complex.

2. Field flatteners. I find them unnecessary, and they also make a binocular unnecessarily complex.

3. Dual focusing/dioptre adjustment wheels. I find diopter adjustment at the right eyepiece easier to handle, especially nowadays, where I may need slightly different settings from time to time. And simpler constructions are easier to get right.

Everything else, especially high transmission, which, contrary what Brock appears to believe, *does* make a rather clear difference in the field, a bombproof body and waterproofing, are essential for my style of birdwatching.

But then I don't only go out when it's nice and warm.

Hermann

Hermann,

I can understand the bomb proofing if you bird in minefields and 19 ft. deep waterproofing if you bird in swamp land, but does 3% more light transmission really make a difference? I don't think my eyes are good enough to see that small a difference.

When the Earth (and therefore the Moon) is at its perihelion, the closest point in its orbit to the Sun, the sunlight that reflects off the Moon is slightly more intense, causing the full moon's brightness to increase by about 4%, but according to astronomers the difference is imperceptible to the human eye.

So I have to wonder if optics companies are trying to pull the wool over our eyes when they try to convince us we need to pay a lot more for a bin after they boost the light transmission a few points when most people can't even see the difference!

<B>
 
I can understand the bomb proofing if you bird in minefields and 19 ft. deep waterproofing if you bird in swamp land, but does 3% more light transmission really make a difference? I don't think my eyes are good enough to see that small a difference.

Brock:

If you bird in all sorts of environments, from Alpine regions to the coast with lots of salt in the air or to dry regions, your bins invariably get soaked from time to time, and they'll also get knocked quite a bit no matter how careful you are. Waterproofing isn't just about dropping your bins in a pond, it's a lot more about them not getting wet inside in salt spray and the like. Get any salt into your bins and that's it. And a waterproof binocular is also dustproof ...

As to the light transmission: It's not really about the 3% more light. It's more the image quality, it's about contrast and clarity. I had a chance to compare the Ultravids of different generations a few times, and I find the difference between the Ultravid HD and the HD Plus (different coatings, Schott HT glass in the prisms) pretty obvious. Same with the Habicht 7x42: If you compare one that's a few years old (NOT the old yellow ones, I should add) to a recent model with the latest coatings, you can *see* a difference in contrast and clarity. That's also "only" a difference of a few percentage points in transmission.

Hermann
 
You know, if push came to shove, I think most of us could get by just fine with the selection of binoculars available under $250 or so. At that price point, glare control isn't always the best, and focusers aren't always rock solid, but similar issues can affect even more expensive units too.

That's what gets me about this $200 SV. The glare control is perhaps the best of all my bins and the focuser is perfection but most of my other bins are good also but again this SV is one of the best. I've come to love the grip of it in the hand with it's slight curve to the barrel and as I've said before the view is immersive and zero CA also. Contrast is variable but always decent and sometimes great. Colour is variable in different light conditions but always decent and often very nice especially in the evenings and it cuts through bad weather really well also. Brightness and sharpness are good but if you pay $1000 more you will get a bit better 5-10%. Even the neck strap is excellent built that any weight vanishes and it's already pretty light.

I'm personally amazed by it and really don't understand why it doesn't seem to be very popular. Perhaps the look is a bit radical for the ludites3:)
 
You know, if push came to shove, I think most of us could get by just fine with the selection of binoculars available under $250 or so. At that price point, glare control isn't always the best, and focusers aren't always rock solid, but similar issues can affect even more expensive units too.

That's what gets me about this $200 SV. The glare control is perhaps the best of all my bins and the focuser is perfection but most of my other bins are good also but again this SV is one of the best. I've come to love the grip of it in the hand with it's slight curve to the barrel and as I've said before the view is immersive and zero CA also. Contrast is variable but always decent and sometimes great. Colour is variable in different light conditions but always decent and often very nice especially in the evenings and it cuts through bad weather really well also. Brightness and sharpness are good but if you pay $1000 more you will get a bit better 5-10%. Even the neck strap is excellent, built that any weight vanishes and it's already pretty light.

I'm personally amazed by it and really don't understand why it doesn't seem to be very popular. Perhaps the look is a bit radical for the ludites3:)

Brock you gotta get a Papilio II. You can bird with it too it's that good, not the optimum tool but it's ok and obviously the close focus system of the 6.5x I have is superb but I do seem to have got a 100%er. Brilliantly sharp and surprisingly bright and contrasty. I get people who use them for everything.
 
Brock:

If you bird in all sorts of environments, from Alpine regions to the coast with lots of salt in the air or to dry regions, your bins invariably get soaked from time to time, and they'll also get knocked quite a bit no matter how careful you are. Waterproofing isn't just about dropping your bins in a pond, it's a lot more about them not getting wet inside in salt spray and the like. Get any salt into your bins and that's it. And a waterproof binocular is also dustproof ...

As to the light transmission: It's not really about the 3% more light. It's more the image quality, it's about contrast and clarity. I had a chance to compare the Ultravids of different generations a few times, and I find the difference between the Ultravid HD and the HD Plus (different coatings, Schott HT glass in the prisms) pretty obvious. Same with the Habicht 7x42: If you compare one that's a few years old (NOT the old yellow ones, I should add) to a recent model with the latest coatings, you can *see* a difference in contrast and clarity. That's also "only" a difference of a few percentage points in transmission.

Hermann

So how did people bird before bomb proof became de rigueuer?

I got along fine with a pair of $90 Bushnells for years, they are a distant second to the Yosemites, but I could get by okay with them again. Might I miss a few things, I'm sure I would, but the best person I ever birded with knew what we were seeing before she even put the inexpensive Monarchs to her eyes.

I think we are conflating wants into needs
 
I think we are conflating wants into needs

Indeed PT, but then again, nobody needs to go birding apart from guides who make their living from it. The whole birding thing is about wanting to do it so its no surprise that some folks want different things from their bins.

But it certainly does no harm to remind ourselves what can be achieved with modest instruments and keep things in perspective.

Lee
 
Indeed PT, but then again, nobody needs to go birding apart from guides who make their living from it. The whole birding thing is about wanting to do it so its no surprise that some folks want different things from their bins.

But it certainly does no harm to remind ourselves what can be achieved with modest instruments and keep things in perspective.

Lee

Not arguing, playing devils advocate. I was just speaking to Brocks post as to what is a must have. Maybe I misread and it was want instead of need (good possibility) but must haves or needs for me, they are pretty basic. If all I had was a cheap pair, I wouldn't give up birding I don't think. Matter of fact it wouldn't change what I do any at all.

I understand the wants, given the choice, I would want my Conquest over the Yosemite, but I don't need them over the Yosemite.
 
BIG parts, BIG parts!!!! A BIG focuser or BIG strap connectors...
doesn't really matter as long as they got BIG parts...
The guys and gals both "Like 'em BIG".... :clap:

Can't get any simpler than that!!

on the serious side... an alpha class 7x36, plain and simple, nothing really BIG about it.

CG
 
Santa has given me an assignment that I need your help with. Having finished this year’s presents, his elves are retooling for next year, and they want to prepare in case there’s another downturn.

It seems that today we’re seeing more “bells & whistles” added to birding binoculars each year that often add significant cost while adding only marginal value. For example, eeking out a few more percentage points of light transmission with HT glass or uber duper coatings that produce at most a 3% difference that many/most users won’t be able to detect except perhaps in the most critical lighting. Yet, some are willing to reach deep into their pockets for minor upgrades because it’s what’s trending.

From the simpler and gentler-on-the-wallet Trinovid with value added ED glass at a lower price than the previous model, it appears that even alpha makers could make bins simpler and less expensive if their engineers stopped listening to the marketing dept. and got down to brass tacks and made a bin with the emphasis on functionality rather than trend setting or in most cases, trend following.

We know from the new Trinny, Conquest HD, Nikon SE, and others that you don't have to spend a fortune to get quality optics and a very good quality build if you simplify the binoculars and emphasize what counts the most – image, ergonomics and focusing. It is how the view looks to the eyes, how the bins feel in the hands and against one’s face, and how smooth turning and precise the focuser is (neither “a turtle nor a roadrunner”) -- which seem to be the three most important features most buyers are looking for in birding binoculars.

The rest – 4 ft. close focus to check for navel lint, 95% light transmission just because we can, dual focuser/diopter monstrosities, field flattners for that last 5% sharpness to the very edge, proprietary alloy frames for lightweight bomb proofing, submarine waterproofing that allows you to fish out your bins from the bottom of a 19ft.-deep creek or pond if you can get to it time add cost for features that many birders neither need nor care about (perhaps you can add more to the list).

Plus, the mechanical complexity some of these features introduce make it more likely the parts will fail, and the more complex optics increase the need for more transmission to compensate for the light lost as a result of a dozen or so optical components. Then there’s the unwanted side effects such as the AMD from reducing pincushion to make lines stay straight until they go over the horizon of the globe (effect). Do birders really need all this shtick?

What’s essential and what’s not? Make a short list of essential items you absolutely must have so Santa’s elves can get to work on the Bare Essentials Binoculars after the effects of the spiked eggnog and rum cakes pass from their little bodies.

Buddy the Elf

Hey Buudd, I don't want to sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas, but your post seems more about personal preferences and an extract from the Flat Earth Society Almanac than any direction I want optics manufacturers taking! ;)

To paraphrase the immortal words of former President Alfred E. Neuman, "The end of your world came yesterday - too bad you missed it ....."

Some of the 2nd tier offerings I find quite bland and redundant - while plenty of folk have time for the Zeiss Conquest HD, I find it a bit blah ..... (little brother the Terra ED, totally meh ...... ). They seem to range from the optically quite good (but tank-like in weight), particularly some of the Japanese or Eastern Bloc built stuff, old Leica Trinovid etc, to things that actually have a logical basis for existence - such as the lightweight Vortex Razor HD. Most seem to exhibit various compromises to hit the target price point - reduced Fov's, and ER's, slightly less transmission, contrast, and absolut colour fidelity, and increased weight through less sophisticated mechanical engineering and less exotic material specification.

It seems to me that an enormous amount of resources are wasted in creating the broadly 3, but many and varied different levels of offerings - material, process, and duplicitous marketing grunt and copy. Wasted in the sense that with just two levels - alpha, and value, ...... vastly, vastly greater scale economies could be achieved thus bringing a substantial cost reduction for the two levels to around ~$1500, and ~$200-$400 (plenty of room to offer play in that value range), respectively. Of course that still leaves room for ~$100 and below entry level porros, and maybe even some 1/2 priced updated alpha type porros for the porrosaurs, and porromaniacs out there .........

Buudd, I think y'all hit two cost saving nails on the head with the greater minimum focusing distance requirement in practice, and the simpler diopter mechanism, unless of course a beautifully designed Leica-like centre mount fashion statement is called for. Most folk want something quality that works reliably - the simpler and cheaper the better - and if that means right eyepiece based, then so be it! But Buudd ...... the waterproofing thing? - de rigueur at all price points - for the purposes of keeping condensation, dust, fluff, and grit out of the bin as much as depth pressurised water or catfish! And the lightweight thing? - can be done better - much better - enter the 'back to the future' (that should keep you porch rockers satisfied :) CFRP .... lighter, stronger, cheaper! :)

What I can't fathom though is all the cr*pping on about flat field "shtick", especially when it (room spinning levels of AMD) only affects a minority (~5-10%, quoting some reliably made up figures! :) ...... so the extra 1 or 2 elements per tube may cost ~<1% in transmission loss ....... sooooo ????? and ?????! It's hardly deal breaking stuff - I'm sure there's room in the stocking for both recipes of goodies :t:

I also find it a hard to believe fairytale that after 5 and a half thousand of your posts (and likely you reading through something like 5 times that amount), which may average some 500 words each (if you're being brief!) or nearly 3 000 000 words!!! that you still don't comprehend the concomitant benefits of increased transmission ????!!!!! :h?: :brains: :scribe: To the manufacturers I say 100% - go for it! You have open license!

Why deprive the world of the brightness Wow! of the "up to and more than 95% tr" HT-type of kit?! ..... let the kiddies look, smile, rejoice, and sing and play in the yard! 3:)

What's needed is not some nihilist regression as you postulate - but rather aim for the skies and shoot for the stars!!! :king:

The full Xmas lights, bells and whistles alpha dawgs, pushing the boundaries of performance - but still at an economy of scale circa $1500-odd, and the trickled down, watered down, specification hobbled 'value' class in whatever optical prescription permutation that takes (reduced Fov's, ER's tr%'s, ED glass of a lesser god, less complex and less expensive coatings, etc, etc). Underpinning both classes can be a paradigm shift to E-glass, or Carbon Fibre reinforced plastic ....... HunTing snobbery be damned! :smoke:

Besides, you already have your perfect bin - the Swaro SLC - turn some of those 3 000 000 words into pennies, and go forth and enjoy! B :)

Bah Humbug indeed!


Chosun :gh:
 
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Functioning binoculars can be purchased for as little as $100 so there's no need for an organized protest against alphas. My 10X50 SV is simple. I pick it up, focus and never once ponder left/right diopters, flat fields or anything else.
 
This is similar to the recent thread questioning the need or use for
mid-tier optics. It's just the reverse argument. I agree that most people
don't need a top tier bino to go bird watching. Many don't care to have
the 'best'.
However, different segments are there for different desires and needs:
Low tier for beginners and some will stay right there not requiring anything above it while being
totally content. The more robust and extra performance of mid-tier is more than enough
for most. Then there are those who are looking for top performance.

I like that the top tier exists. If the UV Plus 8x32 worked with my glasses I'd have it right now.
Instead I'm using a good Opticron (made in Japan from some OEM) and it works just fine. I'll buy what I buy in the future based on both my needs and desires. I'm a bird watcher who also appreciates and enjoys binoculars.

p.s. There may be too many companies making clones, but that's a different argument.
 
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Brock:
...
As to the light transmission: It's not really about the 3% more light. It's more the image quality, it's about contrast and clarity. I had a chance to compare the Ultravids of different generations a few times, and I find the difference between the Ultravid HD and the HD Plus (different coatings, Schott HT glass in the prisms) pretty obvious. Same with the Habicht 7x42: If you compare one that's a few years old (NOT the old yellow ones, I should add) to a recent model with the latest coatings, you can *see* a difference in contrast and clarity. That's also "only" a difference of a few percentage points in transmission.

Hermann

:t::t:

Would be that were more widely understood.

Ed
 
So many Alpha-holders have extolled the qualities and economic comforts
of often toting around Leupold Yosemite 6x30s or 8x30s, it seems like a good model
for what is essential to be good. At least a few more sisters and clones of those
are excellent, too. I ran into stiction trouble with Yosemites, so I would pick the
Kowa 8x30 YF on another day, but the Leupold production line may have fixed this.

I use some classics most of the time,
both Toei Kogaku (JB4), but for new I would consider that "Yosemite family"
the 95% of performance for 10% of the price. Or maybe Nikon ProStaff 7S models,
if you want a little more flatness at under $200.

The best deal in new for me was the Barska 8x30 Crossover, for its phenomenal
eyeglass friendliness and smooth focus, but I had to do a little re-design on the focuser,
so it isn't a sure bet for someone wanting to keep QC/lasting issues out of the livingroom.
 
Besides, you already have your perfect bin - the Swaro SLC - turn some of those 3 000 000 words into pennies, and go forth and enjoy!

Bah Humbug indeed!


Chosun

Hi Chosun, The Swaro SLC Brock talks about using is my Swaro 8x30 SLC, he says it focuses harder the one way you turn the focuser and focuser is mounted on the front part of the binocular. As far as I know he does not have a SLC.
 
Hi Steve, I know he doesn't actually own one!

I meant that in the sense that Brock has often enunciated his satisfaction with the distortion and field characteristics (for his eyes) of the Swarovski SLC (Neu, HD, or now just plain SLC), as well as the EL (before the advent of the Swarovision field flatteners) as his moreorless ideal bin available to him on the shelf - all he has to do is choose a format (8x, 8.5x, or 10x and the appropriate objective size of his choice) and actually buy one!

There must be heaps of deals or good used units available, and I'm sure Swarovski could fine tune or at least improve any minor niggles with it's extensive customer servicing.

Then he could wax lyrical on the joys of using a fully waterproof instrument rain, hail, fog, snow, or shine, instead of the endless crusade against flat field designs ..... I'm sure that Swarovski, and now Zeiss, are well on top of working on the delicate balancing act between those FF bin's distortion curves, in concert with user's own varying distortion profiles. Swarovski has actually tweaked the FF formula a couple of times, and if you dig and read carefully you'll find that Zeiss has already flagged the same agenda ...... For anyone else, suitable models already exist :cat:

Perhaps some of the good ol' boys near Brock could organise a holiday road trip with him down to Proud Papa's ...... I have a feeling that once Brock puts a Zeiss HT to his eyes though, he'll be singing a different tune! :t:


Chosun :gh:
 
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