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Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (18 Viewers)

Interesting. I just clicked on the link and there is an article about the search. Nothing new though.

Site was down. Looks like they didn't pay their bills. The article covers a study which is new, and which the authors say demonstrates that a very small population is theoretically capable of persisting until today. Doesn't inply they have, of course.

Graham
 
Having read through the paper – I believe this to be the salient point: these species can persist…provided they maintain ≥ 1.1. recruited females annually per adult female.

The idea that all those IBWOs out there are quite happily breeding and producing 2+ chicks per year is laughable...
 
Having read through the paper – I believe this to be the salient point: these species can persist…provided they maintain ≥ 1.1. recruited females annually per adult female.

The idea that all those IBWOs out there are quite happily breeding and producing 2+ chicks per year is laughable...

Would definitely have to concur given statistical probability of survival of any given bird Ilya!
 
strating N assumptions

Having read through the paper – I believe this to be the salient point: these species can persist…provided they maintain ≥ 1.1. recruited females annually per adult female.

The idea that all those IBWOs out there are quite happily breeding and producing 2+ chicks per year is laughable...

An extremely narrow representation of a paper that reports conclusions in ranges, as it should. In addition you almost certainly took the wrong end of the range for starting N in 1940......perhaps the authors were a bit low also for the IBWO situation in light of the recent news from MS (Jackson, Bonta). The authors of course were looking at an array of variables, conditions and species.....no idea what Illya was attempting.

Many modern researchers strongly believe, with reason, that the starting N in 1940 was > 30. This hypothesis certainly must be considered after the recent report. This being the strong assertion, with references, that there were 12 birds in Mississippi, contemporaneously with the Singer birds, all completely unknown to Tanner. This leads to a very high probability that he missed other birds in addition to these 12 in the '42 population assessment. These birds were in a late seral forest of only 5 X 5 miles. A few patches this size but many smaller existed and each provided potential habitat from 1935 onwards, until some, but not all were lumbered.

His score of months in the field was insufficient to survey the SE US...a huge area with poor roads and by definition wary informants that did not divulge locations easily. His gen was limited.

There is consideration that numbers continued to drop post 1940 following the destruction of the last known habitat blocks and the destruction of other patches that unknowingly, to at least the establishment, had birds. The 40s must have presented various problems for the survivors but the war followed by prosperity took some of the hunting pressure off the woods. The post 1940 population no doubt had foraging problems combined with dismal fledgling rates.

It's highly probable that the numbers could have decreased in the 1940s with either stasis or more losses even into the 60s since the demes at Singer, Mississippi and elsewhere were devastated and new ranges, favorable dispersal pathways or mate selection mechanisms had to be established in fragmented and subpar habitat. Adult survivorship was probably dropping and low fledging rate was not replacing aging birds.

There is no reason to believe that population delta in the post forest destruction period would have been unidirectional and/or linear.

This may explain why sightings seems to have peaked into the 50s and gotten successively scarcer from 60 onwards until 99.

The minimum N may have occurred well after 1940. This starts the Allee clock later.....with obvious viability implications favorable to the IBWO.

It also may partially explain why there appears to be, and may be very few birds today. Since detection rates, even where birds are known to be, is very low the number of birds in relatively unsearched areas is still unclear. Indications are that the species does not densely occupy even alleged optimal habitat patches.

Management or the lack of it may be the key as even good patches may not have the seclusion and density of high energy food items and the increased nest predation implications that comes with excessive foraging time away from vulnerable nests.

tks Fred Virrazzi

Abstract below....

>>>>Increasing initial population size
from 5–30 resulted in extinction rates < 0.05 under limited conditions: (1) all input values were intermediate,
or (2) Allee effect present and annual adult survival ³ 0.8. Based on our model, these species can persist
as rare, as few as five females, and thus difficult-to-detect, populations provided they maintain ³ 1.1
recruited females annually per adult female and an annual adult survival rate ³ 0.8. Athough a demographicbased
population viability analysis (PVA) is useful to predict how extinction rate changes across
 
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An extremely narrow representation of a paper that reports conclusions in ranges, as it should. In addition you almost certainly took the wrong end of the range for starting N in 1940......perhaps the authors were a bit low also for the IBWO situation in light of the recent news from MS (Jackson, Bonta). The authors of course were looking at an array of variables, conditions and species.....no idea what Illya was attempting.

Many modern researchers strongly believe, with reason, that the starting N in 1940 was > 30. This hypothesis certainly must be considered after the recent report. This being the strong assertion, with references, that there were 12 birds in Mississippi, contemporaneously with the Singer birds, all completely unknown to Tanner. This leads to a very high probability that he missed other birds in addition to these 12 in the '42 population assessment. These birds were in a late seral forest of only 5 X 5 miles. A few patches this size but many smaller existed and each provided potential habitat from 1935 onwards, until some, but not all were lumbered.

His score of months in the field was insufficient to survey the SE US...a huge area with poor roads and by definition wary informants that did not divulge locations easily. His gen was limited.

There is consideration that numbers continued to drop post 1940 following the destruction of the last known habitat blocks and the destruction of other patches that unknowingly, to at least the establishment, had birds. The 40s must have presented various problems for the survivors but the war followed by prosperity took some of the hunting pressure off the woods. The post 1940 population no doubt had foraging problems combined with dismal fledgling rates.

It's highly probable that the numbers could have decreased in the 1940s with either stasis or more losses even into the 60s since the demes at Singer, Mississippi and elsewhere were devastated and new ranges, favorable dispersal pathways or mate selection mechanisms had to be established in fragmented and subpar habitat. Adult survivorship was probably dropping and low fledging rate was not replacing aging birds.

There is no reason to believe that population delta in the post forest destruction period would have been unidirectional and/or linear.

This may explain why sightings seems to have peaked into the 50s and gotten successively scarcer from 60 onwards until 99.

The minimum N may have occurred well after 1940. This starts the Allee clock later.....with obvious viability implications favorable to the IBWO.

It also may partially explain why there appears to be, and may be very few birds today. Since detection rates, even where birds are known to be, is very low the number of birds in relatively unsearched areas is still unclear. Indications are that the species does not densely occupy even alleged optimal habitat patches.

Management or the lack of it may be the key as even good patches may not have the seclusion and density of high energy food items and the increased nest predation implications that comes with excessive foraging time away from vulnerable nests.

tks Fred Virrazzi

Abstract below....

>>>>Increasing initial population size
from 5–30 resulted in extinction rates < 0.05 under limited conditions: (1) all input values were intermediate,
or (2) Allee effect present and annual adult survival ³ 0.8. Based on our model, these species can persist
as rare, as few as five females, and thus difficult-to-detect, populations provided they maintain ³ 1.1
recruited females annually per adult female and an annual adult survival rate ³ 0.8. Athough a demographicbased
population viability analysis (PVA) is useful to predict how extinction rate changes across

Fred - yes the paper reports "in ranges", but the salient point is under what circumstances could populations have persisted? – That’s what I quoted.

Unless there is regular migration between populations (unlikely between e.g. Singer & Mississippi), each population persists in isolation and the overall population size is irrelevant.

In 1939 Tanner estimated 22 to 24 ivory-bills remaining in the United States, with not more than 6 to 8 birds at any one place.
 
Dispersal

Ilya, I am sure you are busy so its hard for you to know some of these trivia like facts…..but some scientific precepts you certainly know.

>>>In 1939 Tanner estimated 22 to 24 ivory-bills remaining in the United States, with not more than 6 to 8 birds at any one place.<<<<

You forgot that he said 22 to 24 plus an unknown number in South Carolina. With the birds he missed in MS we are up to his corrected statement of 34 to 36 plus an unknown number in SC. It’s highly probable that others were missed since he missed 12 in MS that lived into the 40s.

>>>>>>Unless there is regular migration between populations (unlikely between e.g. Singer & Mississippi), each population persists in isolation and the overall population size is irrelevant.<<<<

Migration is not a prerequisite to panmixing of populations. Avian outbreeding mechanisms are numerous for long distance dispersal. Its common in Picidae for there to be female antagonism towards male offspring in order to drive them out of the immediate gene pool. This was observed in IBWO.

If you knew this, then you would be struck by the number of sighting of lone birds that are also males. Weak circumstantial evidence put still amusing in that it matches the biological context of correctly functioning IBWO ethology. In a deme of 6 to 12 birds, with the females related, its far from unusual to have males driven off. Recruitment of males interstate can be expected as demes get smaller, as they must have post 1940.

The recruitment of even one bird every few years can seriously reduce, within the offspring, the Inbreeding Coefficient relative to the parents’.

Tanner also reports convincingly, via measurement of ~ hundred actual bills and the construct of a variation corollary, that there was strong outbreeding mechanisms in IBWOs.

LA and MS are right next to each other and only a fragment of a day is needed for movement. Anyway, the flow between Singer and NW MS 12,000 acres is not being discussed, these areas were destroyed and new demes were formed….panmixing was forced upon lumbering even if not nominal.

Interiver system panmixing is a given…………..past and present. Unless you are by chance working on showing that the Texas rivers, which are not connected to the Mississippi River and its tributaries, had separate subspecific taxa there isn’t a prayer for an assertion that IBWOs historically had minimal outbreeding mechanisms.

Separate from breeding phenology the IBWO was a facultative nomad which would provide another driver for viability, even today.

tks
 
Allan IBWO locations to follow

Fred,

Can you tell me where that is? Despite the great challenges involved with securing tickable views, I'd love to get it "on the list" as (some of us) say.

cheers,
alan

Here are the coordinates for four hotzones 31.63821 89.23451…..whoa. I thought you had sent a PM and I was respoding to that. Very strange to ask for locations of such a rare bird in an open forum, please disregard those coordinates! ha

If you have some conceivable good results/proposals/benefits, in addition to the incredible importance of a tick, glad to hear your private musings.

What’s the latest word on the bird from the likes of Smith, Gullick, Canterbury or the Kaestners. I wonder if Basham has it ticked?

tks fred
 
Ilya, I am sure you are busy so its hard for you to know some of these trivia like facts…..but some scientific precepts you certainly know.

>>>In 1939 Tanner estimated 22 to 24 ivory-bills remaining in the United States, with not more than 6 to 8 birds at any one place.<<<<

You forgot that he said 22 to 24 plus an unknown number in South Carolina. With the birds he missed in MS we are up to his corrected statement of 34 to 36 plus an unknown number in SC. It’s highly probable that others were missed since he missed 12 in MS that lived into the 40s.

>>>>>>Unless there is regular migration between populations (unlikely between e.g. Singer & Mississippi), each population persists in isolation and the overall population size is irrelevant.<<<<

Migration is not a prerequisite to panmixing of populations. Avian outbreeding mechanisms are numerous for long distance dispersal. Its common in Picidae for there to be female antagonism towards male offspring in order to drive them out of the immediate gene pool. This was observed in IBWO.

If you knew this, then you would be struck by the number of sighting of lone birds that are also males. Weak circumstantial evidence put still amusing in that it matches the biological context of correctly functioning IBWO ethology. In a deme of 6 to 12 birds, with the females related, its far from unusual to have males driven off. Recruitment of males interstate can be expected as demes get smaller, as they must have post 1940.

The recruitment of even one bird every few years can seriously reduce, within the offspring, the Inbreeding Coefficient relative to the parents’.

Tanner also reports convincingly, via measurement of ~ hundred actual bills and the construct of a variation corollary, that there was strong outbreeding mechanisms in IBWOs.

LA and MS are right next to each other and only a fragment of a day is needed for movement. Anyway, the flow between Singer and NW MS 12,000 acres is not being discussed, these areas were destroyed and new demes were formed….panmixing was forced upon lumbering even if not nominal.

Interiver system panmixing is a given…………..past and present. Unless you are by chance working on showing that the Texas rivers, which are not connected to the Mississippi River and its tributaries, had separate subspecific taxa there isn’t a prayer for an assertion that IBWOs historically had minimal outbreeding mechanisms.

Separate from breeding phenology the IBWO was a facultative nomad which would provide another driver for viability, even today.

tks

I meant migration in a population dynamics context. The pops were seperated by large tracts of unsuitable habitat. Inter-pop movements would not have been sufficient for the seperate pops to be considered as a single entity.

Lack of genetic mixing over evolutionary time-scales isn't relevent in this context.
 
I recently spent a couple of days going through Tanner's papers, and I'm confident he grossly underestimated the '39 population for a number of reasons.

1. He missed places that probably harbored birds (in addition to the one Fred mentioned,) the Congaree in South Carolina is perhaps the most notable example. This was one of the few Singer Tract-like forests at the time, and it remains so today.

2. He discounted areas that had been logged at the turn of the century, even though some of these areas, particularly along the Gulf Coast could easily have recovered enough to support populations by the time he did his survey.

3. He dismissed or ignored reports from credible sources. I came across one from an Audubon Society officer in Central Missouri. On balance, rejecting this one makes sense, as the location makes it seem very far-fetched. Then again, there's no evidence he ever made any further inquiries about it, and a simple exchange of letters could have shed more light on the matter. More significantly, he received a mid-'30s report from the Pearl (it's in the files). He visited the area for one day in 1938 and wrote that he "found these bottoms completely cut over," and knew of "no recent reports of Ivory-bills from there."

4. Similarly, he dismissed areas of potentially prime habitat, the White River in particular, based on what seem to be rather arbitrary criteria, the population of game animals for example, and very brief visits.

I'm not writing this to trash Tanner, who did a lot excellent work in very difficult circumstances, but he was one man, with very limited resources and certain preconceptions about the bird that had more to do with the American frontier myth than with science.

In sum, I suspect the '39 population was about double what Tanner estimated.

Ilya, I am sure you are busy so its hard for you to know some of these trivia like facts…..but some scientific precepts you certainly know.

>>>In 1939 Tanner estimated 22 to 24 ivory-bills remaining in the United States, with not more than 6 to 8 birds at any one place.<<<<

You forgot that he said 22 to 24 plus an unknown number in South Carolina. With the birds he missed in MS we are up to his corrected statement of 34 to 36 plus an unknown number in SC. It’s highly probable that others were missed since he missed 12 in MS that lived into the 40s.

>>>>>>Unless there is regular migration between populations (unlikely between e.g. Singer & Mississippi), each population persists in isolation and the overall population size is irrelevant.<<<<

Migration is not a prerequisite to panmixing of populations. Avian outbreeding mechanisms are numerous for long distance dispersal. Its common in Picidae for there to be female antagonism towards male offspring in order to drive them out of the immediate gene pool. This was observed in IBWO.

If you knew this, then you would be struck by the number of sighting of lone birds that are also males. Weak circumstantial evidence put still amusing in that it matches the biological context of correctly functioning IBWO ethology. In a deme of 6 to 12 birds, with the females related, its far from unusual to have males driven off. Recruitment of males interstate can be expected as demes get smaller, as they must have post 1940.

The recruitment of even one bird every few years can seriously reduce, within the offspring, the Inbreeding Coefficient relative to the parents’.

Tanner also reports convincingly, via measurement of ~ hundred actual bills and the construct of a variation corollary, that there was strong outbreeding mechanisms in IBWOs.

LA and MS are right next to each other and only a fragment of a day is needed for movement. Anyway, the flow between Singer and NW MS 12,000 acres is not being discussed, these areas were destroyed and new demes were formed….panmixing was forced upon lumbering even if not nominal.

Interiver system panmixing is a given…………..past and present. Unless you are by chance working on showing that the Texas rivers, which are not connected to the Mississippi River and its tributaries, had separate subspecific taxa there isn’t a prayer for an assertion that IBWOs historically had minimal outbreeding mechanisms.

Separate from breeding phenology the IBWO was a facultative nomad which would provide another driver for viability, even today.

tks
 
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He dismissed or ignored reports from credible sources.


The last credible report of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker was in 1944 in the Singer Tract in Louisiana. Richard Pough found the last remaining bird - a female - and he watched it for 10 hours. Don Eckleberry relocated the bird that April and followed it around for two weeks. See "Hope is the Thing with Feathers" by Chris Cokinos pages 103-104. There have been no credible reports of the bird since then, and unfortunately, it is now extinct.
 
Do you have any evidence?

I meant migration in a population dynamics context. The pops were seperated by large tracts of unsuitable habitat. Inter-pop movements would not have been sufficient for the seperate pops to be considered as a single entity.

Lack of genetic mixing over evolutionary time-scales isn't relevent in this context.

You have greatly underestimated the areal 30 year old + second growth available in 1940; this was interspersed with small pockets of older stands and even some old growth. Regardless the ’24 FL birds and the ’48 Cuban, Lamb birds were documented to be roosting in sparse areas of pine or within second growth pine forest dominated by 18” DBH trees.

Microevolution is by definition rapid. Allele frequencies change after even one generation. The recruitment of even one male into a small deme usually reduces homozygosity.

There is plenty of evidence that IBWOs were quite mobile and able to move great distances. Rapid colonization of disturbed/catastrophic areas have been historically noted. The Choctaw birds were feeding in a tornado strip created a few years before.

Are you seriously proposing that IBWOs had a genotype that precluded a phenotypic ethological expression of long distance dispersal to facilitate nominal mate selection? This is normal for many species when surrounded by only parents or siblings in their natal deme.

Do you seriously think a strong flyer like this with few predators couldn’t have the energy reserves to cross several miles of open patches? Do you seriously believe that there was not a mosaic of habitats and a radiating web of riparian corridors, even if some were broken, in the SE even in the 1940s?

Do you have any evidence against a strong outbreeding mechanism in IBWO? Do you have any explanation of why it would not be adaptive, if not necessary, for any large bird species that seems to seek out areas of high tree mortality, post mortem 1-3 yrs, to be able to wander over large distances as needed?

Tks Fv
 
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I recently spent a couple of days going through Tanner's papers, and I'm confident he grossly underestimated the '39 population for a number of reasons.

1. He missed places that probably harbored birds (in addition to the one Fred mentioned,) the Congaree in South Carolina is perhaps the most notable example. This was one of the few Singer Tract-like forests at the time, and it remains so today.

2. He discounted areas that had been logged at the turn of the century, even though some of these areas, particularly along the Gulf Coast could easily have recovered enough to support populations by the time he did his survey.

3. He dismissed or ignored reports from credible sources. I came across one from an Audubon Society officer in Central Missouri. On balance, rejecting this one makes sense, as the location makes it seem very far-fetched. Then again, there's no evidence he ever made any further inquiries about it, and a simple exchange of letters could have shed more light on the matter. More significantly, he received a mid-'30s report from the Pearl (it's in the files). He visited the area for one day in 1938 and wrote that he "found these bottoms completely cut over," and knew of "no recent reports of Ivory-bills from there."

4. Similarly, he dismissed areas of potentially prime habitat, the White River in particular, based on what seem to be rather arbitrary criteria, the population of game animals for example, and very brief visits.

I'm not writing this to trash Tanner, who did a lot excellent work in very difficult circumstances, but he was one man, with very limited resources and certain preconceptions about the bird that had more to do with the American frontier myth than with science.

In sum, I suspect the '39 population was about double what Tanner estimated.

Hello MMinNY:

This higher 1940 starting N is possible. Of course this leaves the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Why so few birds today? There is more to come on this for sure.

Tanner had a letter writing, gen gathering period before he started his study. After the ’24 killings, with the same school involved in that, there certainly must have been some reluctance to give some “kid” locations for such a rare bird.

It’s the equivalent of lewis20126 asking the locations in this forum.

tks FV
 
another internet field surveyor

The last credible report of an Ivory-billed Woodpecker was in 1944 in the Singer Tract in Louisiana. Richard Pough found the last remaining bird - a female - and he watched it for 10 hours. Don Eckleberry relocated the bird that April and followed it around for two weeks. See "Hope is the Thing with Feathers" by Chris Cokinos pages 103-104. There have been no credible reports of the bird since then, and unfortunately, it is now extinct.

Let me guess…you meet 5 or 6 of the following:

1) lives in a N US or W state
2) local library has no books or mags that describe that Pranty, of the FL BRC and ABA BRC, accepts the 67-69 sightings and no books that say AR BRC accepted the 2004 sightings
3) has never heard a Campephilus-like double knock in the US (surely hasn’t heard any if 1 above is correct)
4) led his high school class in book reports dealing with places she/he has never visited
5) has no field data of his own, although he did stop on I 10 once in LA to see a kettle of “hawks”.
6) Did not get his life Swainson’s Warbler in an alleged IBWO hot zone.

In summary do you have any actual field data of your own? Too funny.

tks
 
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