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Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (1 Viewer)

I certainly didn't intend to imply that you had changed anything of the substance of the descriptions. I hope you didn't take it that way.


fangsheath said:
My information comes from 5 sources:

Gallagher's book
Science paper SOM
CLO website
North American Birds paper
Fitzpatrick's AOU presentation

These accounts certainly vary in how much detail is reported. In fact some of the details of Sparling's sighting are I think only mentioned in Fitzpatrick's presentation. In retrospect one might argue that the CLO web site should have all of the details. I tend to agree, but I do not see significant inconsistencies between accounts. As I recall the Science paper does make reference to the NAB paper which contains most of these details. I myself have paraphrased a few things in my summary above - Does this mean my description is a "change"? I like to think not, but I am open to critiques.
 
fangsheath said:
We can argue about interpretations on all of the field marks, including the white on the trailing edges of the wings, that's fine. My point is that it is either true or false to say, "only one observer saw more than one field mark," if by "saw" we mean "reported," which is all we ever have in such a case. That is not what you said, but it IS what some have said. I must judge people's intellectual integrity partly by their willingness to acknowledge misstatements and correct them, not to keep repeating falsehoods. I'm afraid I will not waste my time with those who have no intellectual integrity. As for your statement, I think you must admit that saying "almost all" observers saw only one field mark gives a very different impression from my summary above, which you did not contest as regards its face value. I simply want people to understand what the starting point is.

Yes yes yes, for years people have been reporting all of this. Red here, white there, strong flight, double knock (never all together though, and never ever ever with a photo or video). But to date no one has ever backed it up with real evidence.

Rather than demanding that your fellow bloggers (who also really want the IBWO to be extant) split hairs with you over minor statements why not hold Cornell's feet to the fire....

For Instance: Fitz says in the rebuttal to Sibley et al. that the AR Records Committee decision on the woodie was unanimous - it wasn't, we know that from the new Peacock article. Why did Fitz make that "error of fact"?

Or: As reported in the Peacock article today there is a field tech on the IBWO search who didn't even have a pencil handy, and upon having an "encounter" the tech decided to use his cell phone to call not his field crew headquarters, but his voicemail. Haven't they had two years to get this right? Why was he alone (remember, they got 0 sightings after they put the field crews in teams)? Why no pencil? Why the odd cell phone call to Wyoming?


So we can all argue in our tempest a teapot, but CLO can't back-up their claim of an IBWO in AR in 2004 and 2005 with any uncontested evidence (and by uncontested I mean that the best people in the bird-ID world say the video ID is wrong, and No, it is not sour grapes, they are just identifying a bird!).
 
Better. . .not quite there. I'm persuaded by the totality of the evidence, which includes the audio. I also think one may be skeptical about the video (or even believe it is a PIWO) and still accept the visual observations by themselves or in conjunction with the suggestive audio.

IBWO_Agnostic said:
I know you can't divide the world into only two groups, (although right now I'm listening to "Good Guys & Bad Guys" by Camper Van Beethoven) so how about this:

Group 2:
Cornell has proven to their satisfaction that the video is an IBWO. Feel that the characters reported by observers are enough to confirm an IBWO. (these field marks include plumage characteristics and flight style).
 
Is the 'double-tap' diagnostic of an IBWO?
If so, it'd be cheap enough to leave a few microphones about the place.
If there were enough microphones put into the area, you could do a SETI-type project where people can pick up a different mic on their computers.
Obviously requires a bit of cash and planning - I'm just the ideas man...
I wish I got paid for this stuff...
 
Piltdownwoman said:
So we can all argue in our tempest a teapot, but CLO can't back-up their claim of an IBWO in AR in 2004 and 2005 with any uncontested evidence (and by uncontested I mean that the best people in the bird-ID world say the video ID is wrong, and No, it is not sour grapes, they are just identifying a bird!).

Let me ask this: if Jackson, Sibley or Kaufman had been among those who saw the bird(s) in 2004/2005, but yet did not come back with a good photo, would you be more accepting of IBWO?
 
colonelboris said:
Is the 'double-tap' diagnostic of an IBWO?
If so, it'd be cheap enough to leave a few microphones about the place.
If there were enough microphones put into the area, you could do a SETI-type project where people can pick up a different mic on their computers.
Obviously requires a bit of cash and planning - I'm just the ideas man...
I wish I got paid for this stuff...

That has been done. It's been a major part of the project.
 
Tim Allwood said:
I haven't seen the full Collins footage, just the still, but no one of any standing thinks it's of an IBWO

If that's true, then let's hear them make their case. The video has been available for everyone to see for several months. So far, nobody has made even a remotely convincing argument that it's a pileated. There is no shortage of people who would love to shoot down that video, but nobody has done it. Why not? A detailed discussion of several aspects of the video (along with still frames and video clips) is given at fishcrow.com. Here are the key points:

* The neck-head-crest-bill profile. The profile of a pileated is quite different from the profile of an ivorybill. A pileated has a much shorter and stouter neck. The way the bill is attached to the head of a pileated is very different (like a Neanderthal, they have no chin). The head shape is also very different. The bird appears in focus in the video, and the profile is well resolved. In fact, the bill is even resolved. I have posted a Powerpoint presentation at fishcrow.com that shows that the profile of the bird in the video fits the profile of an ivorybill specimen like a hand in a glove. It also shows that the profile of a pileated doesn't fit the profile of an ivorybill. In my opinion, this aspect of the video alone is conclusive proof that the bird is an ivorybill, but there's much more.

* The left dorsal stripe is clearly and unambiguously resolved in the video. Pileateds don't have this field mark. The only question is whether the feature is actually a field mark, something else such as vegetation, or an artifact. By comparing with an ivorybill specimen that was photographed from the same angle, it is clear that this feature appears in precisely the right location on the bird. In fact, there is even a thin dark strip to the right of the dorsal stripe in the images of the specimen and the bird in the video. Is it vegetation? There is a stripe to the left of the dorsal stripe feature that is vegetation. Less than a second before that frame in the video, the bird was rotated out of view. At that time, the position where the dorsal stripe feature later appears is up against the sky, and it is clear that there is no vegetation in that position. Is it an artifact? Appearing in that image are various features, such as twigs, that are of comparable size to and smaller than the dorsal stripe feature. By comparing with the still photo (which has higher resolution), it is easy to see that these features are well resolved in the video. So it is clear that the dorsal stripe is not an artifact.

* Trailing edge of the right wing. The camera was partially zoomed out when the bird flew to the right, but there are enough pixels to resolve a light colored feature exactly where it should appear on the trailing edge of the top of the right wing. In that frame, the head of the bird is obscured by vegetation, but there is no vegetation blocking the wing. Everything about the wings appears to be correct in that image. The tip of the left wing appears to be visible below the lower edge of the right wing. If the trailing edge feature were an artifact, one would not expect to see such logical order in the image. It is extremely unlikely that an artifact would perfectly mimic such details just by chance.

* Behavior. When perched, the bird assumes the classic leaned back posture of an ivorybill. Although this alone is not conclusive evidence (pileateds sometimes assume such a posture), the bird in the video assumes this posture the entire time it's in view--even when moving. The bird rotates around the branch like a door on a hinge while remaining in the leaned back posture. Then it hitches up the branch with an unusual "slithering" motion.

* Wing length and shape. The wings are long, thin, and pointed like an ivorybill's wings but unlike a pileated's wings.

* Flap style. The flapping leap across the fork of the tree is totally unlike the way pileateds move between nearby branches. The flaps are very deep, which is what you would expect for a heavy bird with relatively long and thin wings. In fact, this is what Tanner states on p. 58: "In the initial flight, when the wings are beaten particularly hard..." When the bird flies a longer distance to the left in level flight, it doesn't tuck its wings between flaps like pileateds.

* Flap rate. There are approximately 7.5 flaps per second when the bird flies to the left in level flight. According to a paper by Tobalske, 7.5 is the highest observed flap rate for pileateds, but we need more than just an upper bound. This important problem needs to be revisited. A large data set will be required to determine the distribution of flap rates under different conditions. How often does a pileated in level flight achieve a flap rate approaching 7.5? I suspect it's very rare based on more than three months of intensive observations of pileateds in the Pearl. I took a small data set (videos of pileateds in level flight) and never observed a flap rate greater than 4.4. If pileateds in level flight approach a flap rate of 7.5 with any amount of regularity, then one should frequently observe flap rates greater than 5 or 6.

* Observations. I saw an ivorybill fly over to the area where the bird was captured on video minutes earlier. I had sightings and heard kents in the same area several times that week. Since 1999, there have been several ivorybill reports within a few miles of that area.
 
IBWO_Agnostic said:
What did Cornell say when they saw your presentation? Did they say that it was conclusive, inconclusive, or what?
I was very impressed with the Cornell folks. They have scientific curiosity and the place has the kind of atmosphere that I remember from my days at MIT. There is no way that they have botched things in Arkansas. I don't see how anyone can buy into that theory since the ivorybill is such an easy species to identify. There have been several sightings up there by observers that were hand-picked from the best birders. These sightings were much better than the view of the bird in the Luneau video.

With ruthless academic competition being what it is, I doubt that Cornell will acknowledge anything from outside their group unless someone comes up with a crystal clear video. They spent several hours with me and pointed out a few things that I hadn't noticed. For example, Ken Rosenberg noticed that the tip of the left wing seems to be visible below the right wing when the bird flies to the right, and Sara Barker Swarthout noticed something near the bill when the bird is perched (it turned out to be a sprig of vegetation). When Ken introduced himself, he said that he was glad to finally meet me because every time he gave a talk someone would ask, "Who is this Mike Collins guy?" When I showed the Powerpoint slides with the overlay of the photo of the ivorybill specimen, Tim Gallagher said, "Well, there it is!" This was a joke, of course, since the specimen is clearly an ivorybill. A devil's advocate claimed that a pileated could fit the profile. I asked him to show me a pileated head that fits. So far, I haven't heard from him and don't expect to.
 
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cinclodes said:
With ruthless academic competition being what it is, I doubt that Cornell will acknowledge anything from outside their group unless someone comes up with a crystal clear video. They spent several hours with me and pointed out a few things that I hadn't noticed. For example, Ken Rosenberg noticed that the tip of the left wing seems to be visible below the right wing when the bird flies to the right, and Sara Barker Swarthout noticed something near the bill when the bird is perched (it turned out to be a sprig of vegetation). When Ken introduced himself, he said that he was glad to finally meet me because every time he gave a talk someone would ask, "Who is this Mike Collins guy?" When I showed the Powerpoint slides with the overlay of the photo of the ivorybill specimen, Tim Gallagher said, "Well, there it is!" This was a joke, of course, since the specimen is clearly an ivorybill. A devil's advocate claimed that a pileated could fit the profile. I asked him to show me a pileated head that fits. So far, I haven't heard from him and don't expect to.
Sounds like you didn't come away grumbling like Jackson. Any chance the bird will be located in the summer? Maybe it's less wary because cover is always so close. When do you think the next search season will come upon us?
 
Bonsaibirder said:
OK lets look at authoritative statements - how about papers and/or letters published in a prestigious scientific journal. There are two that say the Luneau bird is a IBWO (from the same people) and one that says the Luneau bird is a PIWO. So we have authoritative statements on both sides resulting at the very least in disputable facts. So, the identity of the Luneau bird has not been confirmed and remains a matter of opinion either way.
Copernicus said the earth went around the sun and the church said the sun went around the earth. Both very respected authorities. A matter of opinion.

Anyway, the pileated video was interesting in that the pecker was flapping like a bat out of hell but for less than a second and then the bird went into more pecker like flight. If you can film a pileated doing that for two or three seconds it would go a way towards casting doubt about the Luneau video.

I'm down to about 90% on my does the IBWO exist scale.
 
Curtis Croulet said:
Let me ask this: if Jackson, Sibley or Kaufman had been among those who saw the bird(s) in 2004/2005, but yet did not come back with a good photo, would you be more accepting of IBWO?

Great question. Yes, I'd believe them, but NO, I wouldn't expect the bird to be pronounced as extant, and I would vote against it if I was on a Records Committee. I happen to know all three - Ken, Jon and David....been in the field with all three, admire their books, papers, and have been amazed by their field skills - over and over and over. I would believe them, but would not think that it met the criteria for proving the bird was extant - even if all three of them saw it together, and even if they all did field sketches. Without the photo or video it'd be - and I am sure they'd agree - the one that got away. (That is also how I feel about some of the "encounters" - they are all ones that got away.)

I would, however, get on the first airplane that would take me to wherever it was that they saw the bird, and look for the bird. If it was a basic run-of-the-mill rare bird - say an Aztec Thrush in Texas the records committee might accept it with three observers with sketches - three observers who had seen the bird before and with a species that has a pattern of extra-limital occurances. If it was something juicy - say a Spoonbilled Sandpiper at Jamaica Bay (calm down fellas) it probably wouldn't get accepted by a records committee unless there was a photo.

For a presumed/possibly extinct bird, the standards are, and should be, much higher.
 
curunir said:
Copernicus said the earth went around the sun and the church said the sun went around the earth. Both very respected authorities. A matter of opinion.

Earth goes around Sun

no opinion about it

your point being what?

i'll take my movement of heavenly bodies from astronomers thank you... never really trusted the religeous nutters when it came to that discipline

Tim
 
cinclodes said:
If that's true, then let's hear them make their case. The video has been available for everyone to see for several months. So far, nobody has made even a remotely convincing argument that it's a pileated. There is no shortage of people who would love to shoot down that video, but nobody has done it. Why not? A detailed discussion of several aspects of the video (along with still frames and video clips) is given at fishcrow.com. Here are the key points:

.

OK. I'll bite. I will guess that the reason you haven't gotten a full response is that you haven't posted the entire video, and you haven't written a paper for a journal. I am guessing that the video clips all come from one "encounter" - we need to see the whole thing, and better still you should make a DVD of the unedited video available.

In the frames posted on the website the badly lit, out of focus, oddly zoomed, oddly edited image looks for all the world like a woodpecker - you can't make a convincing argument for anything further because the quality actually seems worse than the Luneau video.

No one will touch this without looking at the entire video - not edited pieces. Even then, the quality is very poor.

Sorry. You seem very nice and I know you are working hard on this - but get a better camera and sound recording equipment - or your searches are doomed. You say you got these birds calling all the time, flying over your head etc etc etc - get a better photo!
 
Curtis Croulet said:
Wow! You're tough!
Actually, no so much. These are the standard rules of rare bird records. We all know the rules and play by them (I'd say CLO violated the rules, but that is for another pint). There is many a pint passed with stories of the ones that got away - Honey Buzzard in Delaware (ouch), Baillon's Crake on Attu (ouch). Seen, not photographed, and not accepted.

No one says the people didn't see the birds, only that there is no independent evidence for these very very very rare birds.
 
Piltdownwoman said:
OK. I'll bite. I will guess that the reason you haven't gotten a full response is that you haven't posted the entire video, and you haven't written a paper for a journal. I am guessing that the video clips all come from one "encounter" - we need to see the whole thing, and better still you should make a DVD of the unedited video available.

Yeah, I think he's going to have to formally submit this in some fashion. Maybe after CLO has finished all of their reports for this past season they'll be more receptive to helping Mike get his video analyzed and published.
 
quoting Piltdownwoman:

"get a better camera and sound recording equipment - or your searches are doomed. You say you got these birds calling all the time, flying over your head etc etc etc - get a better photo!"

Piltdownwoman, you say that you have been in the field. From the comment above, I begin to wonder. Do you have any idea what Mike went through to get the video he did, regardless of the quality? If not, I strongly suggest you read his comments earlier in the thread when he was in the field. What you are asking is easier said than done and even though I've never met Mike, I have to defend the guy in some fashion from a continuous, undeserving bashing.

For anyone who has done any real searching for the Ivorybill (and by real searching I don't mean driving refuge roads) you'll know that obtaining a video in that type of habitat is very difficult. Obtaining a video of an Ivorybill may take years. Plain and simple. For the armchair Ivorybillers on this thread to essentially say: "take your videos and take a hike" well, is just not good enough and not acceptable. That type of talk is just not constructive.

The same goes for the Nolin videos. Here's a guy who spends days/weeks attempting to recreate the flight pattern of the IBWO in the Luneau video and because some of his birds are slightly higher or flying slightly faster he receives comments such as "go take another video and bring your shotgun to alter the flight paths" or some rediculous comment along those lines.

If the work people are doing to attempt to resolve this situation is not good enough for some, then I ask those people to go out and do the work themselves and submit "better" work. I challenge you - see what you can do!
 
curunir said:
Sounds like you didn't come away grumbling like Jackson. Any chance the bird will be located in the summer? Maybe it's less wary because cover is always so close. When do you think the next search season will come upon us?
It's tempting to do some searching during the summer, but the odds of success are very slim. Even after the end of February, I only had a few possible sightings. I will return in the fall.
 
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