Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (2 Viewers)

[70ivorybill78]

Originally Posted by red-dawn35
I HAVE NEVER seen a Pileated fly showign that much white and the flight path was a straight line. Every pileated I have ever seen has flown in a looping flight. Maybe someone can comment on this...
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I have personally seen multiple Pileateds flying in straight "non-looping" flight. I have also seen the "more typical" undulating Pileated flight. Pileateds are quite capable of both flight types, but I also have never seen that degree of white on a normal Pileated.

 

[cts]

There are at least three PIWOs in the forest surrounding our farm, we get to see them every few weeks. Once after watching one of them drilling some downed logs, and then taking off, directly away from my wife and I. We then went to the dvd and watched the flight of "Elvis"?on Luneau's video. Not even close. Just as others are saying, the amount of white was vastly different and the flight too seemed to be very different. When you experience something with your own eyes its hard to be convinced otherwise.

 

[fangsheath]

Did your bird fly off with more or less continuous wingbeats, or did it use intermittent flapping (flap/bounding)?

 

[streatham]

It continues to surprise me how so many people with so little real experience with PIWO suddenly feel they can be so confident on their knowledge of the species, and talk about it in such certain terms. This is my main problem with those who seem so convinced, I can understand that if you look at the video in one way you can see the bird in the film as an IBWO (personally the Sibley explanation raises too many doubts for me to be certain) but I cannot see how people with limited experience of one species and none with the other can start to try and draw conclusions on 'jizz', flight style, flap rates etc etc etc.

Luke

 

[kyanite]

Hi cts,

No offence but it continues to surprise me how so many people with so little real experience with PIWO suddenly feel they can espouse on the species in such certain terms. This is my main problem with those who seem so certain. I can understand that if you look at the video in one way you can think that this bird is an IBWO but personally the Sibley explanation raises too many doubts for me to be certain and I have probably looked at as many PIWO's as anyone else on this board.

Luke

Have you seen the video at original speed, unmagnified? The zoomed and slowed version as originally released just doesn't convey how fast that bird was moving...

 

[Goatnose]

Other Variables

It continues to surprise me how so many people with so little real experience with PIWO suddenly feel they can be so confident on their knowledge of the species, and talk about it in such certain terms. This is my main problem with those who seem so convinced, I can understand that if you look at the video in one way you can see the bird in the film as an IBWO (personally the Sibley explanation raises too many doubts for me to be certain) but I cannot see how people with limited experience of one species and none with the other can start to try and draw conclusions on 'jizz', flight style, flap rates etc etc etc.

Luke

In a couple of observations that I have enjoyed. There are other variables involved. Pileateds(?) are curious, they seem to crave a second look at" what the heck is that lump on the ground" and in that second look they are concerned with dodging limbs or whatever at the same as they are peering back over their back or wings. Eratic flight pattern, not undulating but favoring their curiosity at the same time as their need to escape. to flee. I can not use flight pattern as a diagnostic at this point in my encounters, while a bird is fleeing. Most likely my search methods are flawed, I need to employ search methods that insure that I see the bird before it sees me. At that point I can utilize flight pattern. Come to think of it, I should not comment on flight pattern either for Luke or against.

 

[streatham]

In a couple of observations that I have enjoyed. There are other variables involved. Pileateds(?) are curious, they seem to crave a second look at" what the heck is that lump on the ground" and in that second look they are concerned with dodging limbs or whatever at the same as they are peering back over their back or wings. Eratic flight pattern, not undulating but favoring their curiosity at the same time as their need to escape. to flee. I can not use flight pattern as a diagnostic at this point in my encounters, while a bird is fleeing. Most likely my search methods are flawed, I need to employ search methods that insure that I see the bird before it sees me. At that point I can utilize flight pattern. Come to think of it, I should not comment on flight pattern either for Luke or against.

Hi Goatnose - this is what I am talking about - I have encountered Pileateds that are not 'always' curious. Many times I have flushed them and they have disappeared off into the heart of a wooded area - sometimes they've let me approach to under 20 feet. The idea that behaviour is diagnostic, or the positioning on a tree or how stealthy they are is all so variable as to be meaningless IMHO at the moment. At some point in the future when we have tracked down and studied the remaining IBWO population thoroughly we will possibly be able to make sensible comments on the 'jizz' of the two birds until that point all of this 'jizz' based identification seems like a lot of speculation.

Luke

 

[Jesse Gilsdorf]

Speculation: Yes, otherwise known as attempting to form hypotheses. Many people are trying to figure out what is happening and why. This is as important a step as any especially when you have limited opportunities to see the bird. By theorizing people are attempting to increase their opportunities.

Someone mentioned to me yesterday that they wanted to know what IBW would eat on the ground. This question is important even if we are not sure that they do eat on the ground. IF they eat on the ground, and IF we can find out what, we may be able to increase are chances of seeing them by staking out an area. We can test the hypothesis formed, and, if wrong, try again and start over.

I formed a hypothesis some time ago that the IBW MAY be in Illinois. Long ago I proved that to myself and some others that it was true. Many people would say "No", not possible, out of range, no habitat, etc. Through my work, and I mean work, I have shown on this thread more often than not that it is in range, I have seen the habitat, and I have seen the bird.

For those who say this is wrong I start with my favorite - the bird taken in St. Louis that is in the Denver Natural History Museum, and Audubon's description of the bird being present towards the mouth of the Missouri, again St. Louis, and the bones found in Cahokia Mounds, again St. Louis. For those that don't now where St. Louis is it would be roughly 1/3 up the State of Illinois, and the State is a BIG state top to bottom.

Point is are people speculating? Yes. Is it bad? No, it is necessary for those that are out searching for the bird.

 

[Piltdownwoman]

There are at least three PIWOs in the forest surrounding our farm, we get to see them every few weeks. Once after watching one of them drilling some downed logs, and then taking off, directly away from my wife and I. We then went to the dvd and watched the flight of "Elvis"?on Luneau's video. Not even close. Just as others are saying, the amount of white was vastly different and the flight too seemed to be very different. When you experience something with your own eyes its hard to be convinced otherwise.

What you see with your own eyes IS vastly different from the deinterlaced, interpolated and magnified video CLO has used in its analysis. The actual video contains very few pixels of information. There is a conflict introduced that this image is being identified as an IBWO based on the amount of white -but the camera will enhance the white. That single field mark is not enough to call the six-pixel image an IBWO because of that conflict.

If you have a chance to look at the actual information captured by that camera - not the manipulated image - do it. The interpolation, magnification and deinterlacing makes a mess of an already terrible image.

 

[cts]

Did your bird fly off with more or less continuous wingbeats, or did it use intermittent flapping (flap/bounding)?

Sorry to take so long to answer this. The PIWO I saw taking off from the ground did use the continuous wingbeats. I wonder if PIWOs use the more continuous wingbeat from low level takeoffs, as opposed to the more common bounding flight from higher in the trees. The video that we watched was the one the you can purchase from Luneau and has many different speeds and magnification. Still the difference seemed to be so obvious. I am certainly not an expert, but I am telling you what is apparent to me, based on my given information. I've included a terrible picture of the PIWO about 30 seconds before taking off. It was accompanied by another Pileated and a Northern Flicker which followed this one for about three minutes from downed log to downed log. This was taken by a digital and when I saw how bad it was I did not take any more.

 

[Edward woodwood]

I wonder if PIWOs use the more continuous wingbeat from low level takeoffs, as opposed to the more common bounding flight from higher in the trees.

I don't know of any woodland birds that gain height from close to the ground by not flapping in a 'more continuous' (???) way

:king:
Tim

 

[cts]

I don't know of any woodland birds that gain height from close to the ground by not flapping in a 'more continuous' (???) way

fangsheath: Did your bird fly off with more or less continuous wingbeats, or did it use intermittent flapping (flap/bounding)?

This was what I was refering to when I posed the question. Looking at the way you took it, with out the context, I guess it was amusing.

 

[Goatnose]

Hi Goatnose - this is what I am talking about - I have encountered Pileateds that are not 'always' curious. Many times I have flushed them and they have disappeared off into the heart of a wooded area - sometimes they've let me approach to under 20 feet. The idea that behaviour is diagnostic, or the positioning on a tree or how stealthy they are is all so variable as to be meaningless IMHO at the moment. At some point in the future when we have tracked down and studied the remaining IBWO population thoroughly we will possibly be able to make sensible comments on the 'jizz' of the two birds until that point all of this 'jizz' based identification seems like a lot of speculation.

Luke

Luke; Grab a bag, pack your britches and brogans, and get down here to Arkansas to help me rule out Pileated, or see question below. The reasons that I posted Pileated(?) is that on two occassions I have NOT been able to rule out Pileated as the bird that I was observing. They were both flying in a (not undulating) path. Hard, fast one occasion peering back the other just hard and fast fleeing. Both demonstrating white trailing and not just white but a yellow white color, not the real white as you would observe on say a Red Headed. The last encounter(2 weeks ago) the bird did have a Red Creast, my first rule out, but for the life of me I could not rule out Pileated based on flight pattern or coloration of the secondaries, white wing spots etc. This bird I did hear wing noise. The best I have been able to immulate the wing noise is thus;
I have my wife, who has longer fingernails, can take a wicker basket and with her hand cupped and turned in the same direction of her brushing, brishly and lightly brush her fingers across the wicker basket to capture the sound I heard. Question, Luke, have you heard wing noise from Pileateds? Hope so, then I can rule out Pileated on this encounter.
Thanks
tt

 

[olivacea]

and the bones found in Cahokia Mounds, again St. Louis.

The presence of Ivory-billed bones in pre-Columbian sites probably has no bearing in determining their range. Ivory-billeds were apparently heavily prized and traded by Native Americans. And, their was extensive trade... How else would one explain a copper breast plate found in Florida, roughly 800 miles from the nearest copper deposits...

Dream on...
olivacea

 

[Jesse Gilsdorf]

Oh, and the bird shot in 1886 there wasn't there? There is no need for insulting comments. You may wish to ignore the facts, but from your comment I can see that ignorance is your stated position.

 

[olivacea]

Oh, and the bird shot in 1886 there wasn't there? There is no need for insulting comments. You may wish to ignore the facts, but from your comment I can see that ignorance is your stated position.

Jesse,

I only commented on one aspect of your post, and that was to point out that the presence of Ivory-billed bones in pre-Columbian sites might not be a good indication of their local presence. No offense was intended. I apologize for knowlege of Native American trade practices (sure!). I once dated an archaeologist...

Ignorantly Yours...
olivacea

 

[Jesse Gilsdorf]

Still ignorant. Simply put the BONES of an ivory bill would not likely have been traded. The bills and head were. I also am aware of the trade of Mississippian cutlures, and am well aware that Cahokia in particular was a major trade center. The center of the origianl north American Free Trade Zone.

Bones, however, are rather unlikely to have moved because the are breakable, not pretty, and had little value. They certainly would have been useless as tools.

A point you make is well taken, though, you only commented on "one aspect" of the argument, picking what is admittedly not the strongest argument. Since you are so smart perhaps you could explain a little tougher point: the bird Hahn took in Forest Park in 1886?

 

[Curtis Croulet]

Flapping ducks: Here's the reply I got from Anne Hobbs, Public Information Specialist at CLO:

" I appreciate your writing about this but I think perhaps you didn't get the entire quote. What Dr. Fitzpatrick was saying is that there are a variety of sounds that are similar to the double knock of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker. However, when you do spectrographic comparisons of these sounds, they are quite different. In the field, it may not be possible to distinguish between a duck's wings slapping the water and an Ivory-bill's double knocks but in the lab, you certainly can."

 

[Curtis Croulet]

There's a new update on Cornell's website, marking the end of the search season. There are no surprises.

 

[affe22]

There's a new update on Cornell's website, marking the end of the search season. There are no surprises.

Pretty disappointing if you ask me. Here is a direct link.