Italian Sparrows (1 Viewer)

[George Edwards]

Taken at Lake Garda, northern Italy so prime location for the Italian Sparrow. The male fits the Collins illustration but are the females Italian too? There were also House Sparrows in the same location.

 

[James Lowther]

i think the females are pretty much indistinguishable?
not that surprising given how similar spanish and house sparrow fems are...

 

[nickderry]

exactly, females are impossible to tell, the male is of course a handsome italian stallion.

 

[colonelboris]

Sometimes, the females will have a bit of spotting on the breast, but very weak. I go with Topfer's interpretation of these birds as being conspecific with Spanish Sparrows, rather than what's written in Collins about them being a hybrid of House and Spanish Sparrows. While hybridisastion does occur between House and Italian Sparrows, the hybrids are clearly intermediate.
Now, here's a thing - do I go ahead and tick Spanish Sparrow off of the back of the Italian Sparrows I've seen? Tough decisions, eh?

 

[chris butterworth]

1st female looks a bit streaky on the upper breast so I'd go with Italian for that one. I know that female House Sparrow can show faint streaking underneath but this one looks a bit to "strong". The second photo of a female looks very plain underneath so House. Unless they're the same bird then I'm bu**ered if I know. The males an Italian, anyway!
Chris

 

[George Edwards]

The male seemed to be more of a hen-pecked husband than an Italian stallion! Their courtship ritual involved a display of tail feathers, then the female jumping on top of the male and pecking him on the back of the head. I was wondering if this was a typical ritual or a communication breakdown between different sub/species/hybrids …

 

[Marmot]

Probably the man in the know for this is BF member "foxsparrow" aka Menotti Passarella who is from Italy and a guide he has such an in depth knowledge of Birds. He is such a lovely man I met him at the BF tent at the Birdfair a couple of years ago an he kept me enthralled with his knowlege [he is quite handsome as well ]

You could send a PM to him and I am sure he would you about them.
http://www.birdforum.net/member.php?u=30

 

[colonelboris]

The male seemed to be more of a hen-pecked husband than an Italian stallion! Their courtship ritual involved a display of tail feathers, then the female jumping on top of the male and pecking him on the back of the head. I was wondering if this was a typical ritual or a communication breakdown between different sub/species/hybrids …

If you've got time to spare, here's a work on the House Sparrow and a chapter on the dominance lines in groups of them...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA262,M1

 

[Richard Klim]

Just back from a week in Corsica, where urban sparrows are italiae. But to complicate matters, there's a population of hispaniolensis in/around the southernmost town (Bonifacio) - males seen there included obvious hispaniolensis and various intermediates.

[Dutch Birding seems to be alone in recognising Passer italiae Italian Sparrow as a species.]

Richard

 

[George Edwards]

If you've got time to spare, here's a work on the House Sparrow and a chapter on the dominance lines in groups of them...

Interesting - seems to confirm the behaviour I saw. Must have been because I had a sandwich in my hand !

 

[colonelboris]

[Dutch Birding seems to be alone in recognising Passer italiae Italian Sparrow as a species.]

Richard

Ah, but even they give a small note of reservation as they title it Passer 'italiae'...
Or at least they did in the 2006 booklet.

I've only got the first page of Topfer's paper, but he certainly seems sure of the subject.
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2006f/z01325p145f.pdf
If anyone can get a full copy of the paper, I'd be much obliged...

 

[ruggiel]

Sometimes, the females will have a bit of spotting on the breast, but very weak. I go with Topfer's interpretation of these birds as being conspecific with Spanish Sparrows, rather than what's written in Collins about them being a hybrid of House and Spanish Sparrows. While hybridisastion does occur between House and Italian Sparrows, the hybrids are clearly intermediate.)

In the last decade, Spanish Sparrow is expanding North along the Italian peninsula, with new breeding sites reported in Marche (C Italy) and in the Po Delta.
This means that Spanish now occurs, forming pure colony, where Italian was formerly widespread. It is reasonably that Italian is probably not truly the result of a hybridization between the two, but DNA analysis can be the ultimate proof.

 

[Richard Klim]

Dutch Birding seems to be alone in recognising Passer italiae Italian Sparrow as a species.

Ah, but even they give a small note of reservation as they title it Passer 'italiae'...
Or at least they did in the 2006 booklet.

...the cautious quotes were removed in the 2008 issue, and in the current on-line version (4 Mar 2009), suggesting unqualified recognition as a valid species now:
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/websiteMlistupdateABvdB20090304.pdf

Richard

 

[colonelboris]

...the cautious quotes were removed in the 2008 issue, and in the current on-line version (4 Mar 2009), suggesting unqualified recognition as a valid species now:
http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/websiteMlistupdateABvdB20090304.pdf

Richard

Thanks, Richard! I'd certainly not think anything wrong with it being a vaild taxon, although I'd be a bit fuzzy about whether it's at the species or subspecies level - I couldn't say. Mainly because I'm a rank amateur at this line of work...

 

[foxsparrow]

Probably the man in the know for this is BF member "foxsparrow" aka Menotti Passarella who is from Italy and a guide he has such an in depth knowledge of Birds. He is such a lovely man I met him at the BF tent at the Birdfair a couple of years ago an he kept me enthralled with his knowlege [he is quite handsome as well ]

You could send a PM to him and I am sure he would you about them.
http://www.birdforum.net/member.php?u=30

Thanks Marmot
As about the topic, I disagree with the mainstream opinion here, with the new Collins and with the maximum sparrow expert J. Denis Summers-Smith as Italian Sparrow being either a 'species' or a form of Spanish Sparrow.
Main reasons are:
1. House Sparrow and Italian Sparrow hybridize at the feet of the S Alps where the two forms meet;
2. As reported by Luciano Ruggieri, Spanish Sparrrow is now a common summer visitor and rare winter visitor in the Po Delta. It breeds only on trees while Italian Sparrow breed on roofs. The two forms breeds in the same habitat but in separate locations. They do not hybridize.
3. I brang an american birdwatcher to a village in the Po Delta where there are colonies of both. He was unable to tell the voice of the Italian Sparrow from the one of the House Sparrow widespread in the United States (so House Sparrow and Italian Sparrow have the same call). According to him, instead, Spanish Sparrow has a very different call compared to both Italian and (american) House Sparrow.
Finally: nobody is studying this very important (at a continental level) situation were a new immmigrating population of Spanish Sparrow is 'invading' the territories of Italian Sparrows. They do not 'make love', the fight for food resources and Spanish Sparrow wins, being able to chase away Italian Sparrows from areas where the colonies of the former are huge. IMHO Italian Sparrow is a subspecies of House Sparrow: Passer domesticus italiae. I hope the Italian Rarity Committee would mantain this in the Italian list.

 

[njlarsen]

Hybridization per see does not exclude the possibility of both being full species, it depends on the characteristics of the hybridization area and the birds in it (horse and donkey can hybridize, but both are still good species).

Niels

 

[foxsparrow]

And how about the matter that Italian and Spanish Sparrow (in the Po Delta) do not mate in spite of they are considered (by many) as pertaining to the same species ?