Is all this bird ringing necessary? (2 Viewers)

[ChrisKten]

With respect to those opposed to ringing / tagging wild birds I think John has hit the nail squarely on the head. Aesthetics and sentimentality tend to hamper scientific work in the natural world. I work with molluscs and, try as we might, there is no way to identify slugs without dissecting them and checking their genitalia ( it's the same with many other orders of invertebrate ). There have been many calls for entomologists etc. to be banned from collecting samples for just these reasons, but until we devise other ways of gathering data / IDing species, it's the only thing we have left. If the opponents of ringing / tagging can come up with a less intrusive way of gathering data then I, for one, would welcome any suggestions.

Chris

Just my luck that I've been wrong my whole life; there is such a thing as Reincarnation, and I'll come back as a Slug and someone will want to ID me

 

[George London]

there is no way to identify slugs without dissecting them and checking their genitalia ( it's the same with many other orders of invertebrate ).

Chris

different species different size? Poor little fellas!

 

[Tideliner]

George , to become a fully qualified ringer takes usually 3-5 years. You start as a helper , which is someone who basically goes along to see what ringing is about and maybe allowed to hold a bird or two under the direct supervision of the ringer. You then apply to the BTO for a trainee licence which allows you to ring birds under the supervision of a ringing trainer. After 1-2 years when you have ringed about 1000 birds of a wide variety ( around 50 species ) as a trainee your trainer can recommend you are checked by an independent ringer ( not your trainer ) and are expected to go on a course for several days you can apply for a C permit. This allows you to ring alone , but you may have restrictions in the number of nets you use , age of birds you can ring or species or methods you use to catch birds. During this period you will be checked from time to time by your trainer. After another year or two and as you gain a wide experience in ringing you can then apply for a full A ringing licence.

You will have to buy your own equipment and at £50 a mist net it comes quite expensive to set up everything. I used to spend about £1000 a year on rings and equipment. There is a disciplinary board which you will have to answer to if you break any of the terms of your licence or show disregard for the birds welfare. Jos has said he has seen birds being thrown into the air , do that in this country and it will be a good way to lose your licence though if is allowed to gently lob a few species such as swifts into the air as they have a trouble taking off from the ground. The whole ringing scheme is run by the BTO under control of DEFRA. I am not sure how many ringers there today , but including traniees , C and A ringers it was about 2000 a few years ago.

All information is sent into to the BTO data base and is extensively used by conservation bodies and government departments.


And remember ringing is done by people who are birdwatchers so have the welfare of the bird at heart.

 

[Tideliner]

Look on the bright side Chris , if you come back as a slug the quicker you get diss ected the quicker you are recarnated again , perhaps this time as something more interesting.

 

[ChrisKten]

Look on the bright side Chris , if you come back as a slug the quicker you get diss ected the quicker you are recarnated again , perhaps this time as something more interesting.

Yeah, knowing my luck it'll be as a Ruddy Duck |=)|

 

[Adam W]

I used the Sparrowhawk example as I have close views of many attacks, and any bird that has a "lucky escape" doesn't "very quickly simply carry on with life as normal". The bird quickly makes for cover, and stays there shivering with shock until it recovers. The time taken depends on the individual bird.

(Oh, and Sparrowhawks pin down their prey by inserting their talons, so many that escape (Sparrowhawk spooked and not a good enough hold to take the bird with it) don't survive anyway. So it's a bit different in that way, but I suspect no different for the bird; which is what I posted. The ringer will know that the aim is to release the bird unharmed, but the bird doesn't.)

I suppose "very quickly" perhaps wasnt the best way of putting it butthe point i was trying to make is that the traumatic experience wont have any long term effect as traumatic life threatening experiences are part and parcel of daily life for wild birds so assuming the bird isnt physically harmed then i dont think there's likely to be any long term problems.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Jos has said he has seen birds being thrown into the air , do that in this country and it will be a good way to lose your licence ...

As said, not in the UK. I trained as a ringer in the UK and think the standards there are essentually as good as they could possibly be. Sue O posted from beyond the UK and got shot down for her concerns, it is worth noting that standards vary widely across even Europe.

You will have to buy your own equipment and at £50 a mist net it comes quite expensive to set up everything. I used to spend about £1000 a year on rings and equipment. There is a disciplinary board which you will have to answer to if you break any of the terms of your licence or show disregard for the birds welfare.

Again, not necessariy the same beyond UK.

 

[jpoyner]

The Earth's magnetic field is pretty freakin strong, and stops our atmosphere being torn off the Planet by solar storms.
It's also the reason we get solar firework displays North and South.
I think you may be watching the audience, and not the gig...

Rant over...|=o|

To be exact it isn't....in fact it's strength at any one point is significantly less than the field of your average fridge magnet! Try holding a compass near pretty much any electronic gadget and see what happens to the needle.....

 

[GraemeS]

To be exact it isn't....in fact it's strength at any one point is significantly less than the field of your average fridge magnet! Try holding a compass near pretty much any electronic gadget and see what happens to the needle.....

You are mostly correct, of course, but to be fair, strength being large or small is horribly unscientific, it's all relative. A piece of GPS equipment strapped to a bird is very unlikely to exhibit any magnetic effects that overcome the Earth's magnetic field, especially near the bird's head. Field strength drops rapidly with distance from the source. Therefore the Earth's magnetic field can be considered large in this instance. (incidentally, I'm not basing this on explicit knowledge of gps tags).

Similarly, summer days can get very hot, but the temperature at any one point is significantly less the temperature of a fresh cup of tea. Unless it's iced

 

[Nightranger]

With respect to those opposed to ringing / tagging wild birds I think John has hit the nail squarely on the head. Aesthetics and sentimentality tend to hamper scientific work in the natural world. I work with molluscs and, try as we might, there is no way to identify slugs without dissecting them and checking their genitalia ( it's the same with many other orders of invertebrate ). There have been many calls for entomologists etc. to be banned from collecting samples for just these reasons, but until we devise other ways of gathering data / IDing species, it's the only thing we have left. If the opponents of ringing / tagging can come up with a less intrusive way of gathering data then I, for one, would welcome any suggestions.

Chris

'....and you put the slug back together again? With respect, sir what is in it for the slug?' Para...para...paraphrase.

Incidentally, earlier in the thread several contributors talked about navigation by the Earth's magnetic field. I thought this was now largely in doubt unless I have missed some research in the last few years?

I have nothing to add to the general debate as I tend to reserve judgement on ringing. Like everything in life, there are good and bad examples and I am not sure the returns justify the effort but the data that does come in is very useful.

 

[chris butterworth]

different species different size? Poor little fellas!

More like keys and locks. Wrong 'key' and you just don't get in ( and they're hermaphroditic, as well ). :-C :-C :-C

Chris

 

[keith]

What right have we to dissect these slugs in the first place, and what for?.

 

[GraemeS]

What right have we to dissect these slugs in the first place, and what for?.

I say we have no right to do so.
Or for that matter, no right to ring birds, or keep pets, or hunt, or protect rare species.

The second question is the interesting one, deciding whether the purpose validates the action.
I do always find it fascinating that we (myself included) tend to find the killing of small creatures like slugs more acceptable than larger creatures. Yes, they have less developed systems, but I'm not convinced that is the genuine reason for the distinction we tend to make.
And that we tend to show more compassion towards iconic species than ugly ones.

(Please note my deliberate use of 'tend to', I'm not saying it's an absolute truth in any individual, and my use of 'fascinating' was not ironic, it's a genuine anthropological fascination).

 

[grebefeet9]

Yeah, knowing my luck it'll be as a Ruddy Duck |=)|

hopefully one in north america :king:

 

[chris butterworth]

What right have we to dissect these slugs in the first place, and what for?.

No RIGHT at all. For identification and furthering knowledge ( which, I suppose is better than to protect overbred garden plants ).

Chris

 

[JTweedie]

No RIGHT at all. For identification and furthering knowledge ( which, I suppose is better than to protect overbred garden plants ).

Chris

I think the onus must be on the person doing these identifications and gathering knowledge to specify exactly what knowledge is being gained and how it is expanding on what is already known. Do you publish your findings, or submit to organisations who then publish the data?

This is not picking on you specifically, but more a general point. When someone (whether an individual or an organisation) claims that what they do is furthering knowledge, then they must show exactly how this is so.

 

[trw]

I started off this thread looking for some answers.
Not sure if I'm at all reassured.
Just read another blog wherby the ringer informs us he's caught and ringed 27 Willow Warbler and 3 Chiffchaff.
So 30 birds have had a traumatic morning and now they are forced to wear a metal ring for the rest of their lives.
I think they have enough to put up with having to fly 1000's of miles to Africa and back and raise young in the meantime.
I am sure in the majority of cases ringing is a way of life and a daily habit carried out ringers for own selfish benefit and not for the well being of the birds.
The only ringers I have met are not even proffesionals.They just do because its their own selfish hobby and gives them a structure to their day.
Maybe we should trap some of these ringers,put them in a bag and hang them from a weighing scale.Then take them out check how fat they are and clamp a metal ring around their legs and make them wear them for the rest of their lives.Give them a taste of their own medecine and teach them empathy with the birds.
I have always believed animals should be treated as far as possible how we as humans would like to be dealt with.
Maybe its time to knock this old pastime on its head.
We have got enough information about Willow Warblers and Chiffchaffs haven't we?

 

[Steve Lister]

There was an interesting talk about the Estonian ringing scheme at the Birdfair on Friday - delivered by Tarvo Valker. He showed a chart showing a rapid drop off in the numbers of birds ringed over the last twenty (I think) years. When asked about the reason for the drop he answered that the main reason was that there was little left to learn about migration.
Obviously migration is not everything that ringing studies aim at. But maybe it is what interests most ringers.

Steve

 

[Bananafishbones]

Just read another blog wherby the ringer informs us he's caught and ringed 27 Willow Warbler and 3 Chiffchaff.
So 30 birds have had a traumatic morning and now they are forced to wear a metal ring for the rest of their lives.
I think they have enough to put up with having to fly 1000's of miles

Maybe we should trap some of these ringers,put them in a bag and hang them from a weighing scale.Then take them out check how fat they are and clamp a metal ring around their legs and make them wear them for the rest of their lives.Give them a taste of their own medecine and teach them empathy with the birds.

First paragraph certainly does make you stop and think!

I know it is a serious topic, however the second paragraph is just pure quality and very funny :-O

 

[Nightranger]

There was an interesting talk about the Estonian ringing scheme at the Birdfair on Friday - delivered by Tarvo Valker. He showed a chart showing a rapid drop off in the numbers of birds ringed over the last twenty (I think) years. When asked about the reason for the drop he answered that the main reason was that there was little left to learn about migration.
Obviously migration is not everything that ringing studies aim at. But maybe it is what interests most ringers.

Steve

Interesting viewpoint there although I would probably qualify that a little and say there is little left to learn about migration from ringing alone. I am not ethically against ringing but I tend to think questions should be asked about ringing for ringing's sake (a message that has been mentioned on this thread already). Ringers are highly qualified and that means knowing which species are most prone to stress but I am sure it is human nature that mistakes happen. My gut feeling is that we are moving more towards satellite tagging (when it is possible) and where ringing can tell us about migration and longevity, satellite tagging can (potentially) tell us about migration and mortality and this may be much more significant from a conservation perspective. I do not see ringing dying out completely but I think in the evolution of technology it will decline in importance and general use.