Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Sushil,
Your continued refusal to engage in reasoned debate, and answer in any genuine way, shape, or form, the logical positions put to you by myself, others, and ChrisB's post#282, and recent one above, is both highly insulting and totally ignorant.
As the last two posters have concluded, you have no intention to debate your illogical conclusions based on the irrefutably factual and soundly logical arguements put to you. This thread is just a(nother) self-serving platform for your juvenile West blaming, hate filled diatribe. Your derision of the cultural, creative, and spiritual aspects of the West, is nothing less than racial hubris.
You contend that agrarian society is sustainable. It is not. You fail to address all the pre-industrial society, and agricultural caused environmental collapses, and all the pre-industrial extinctions, put to you. You fail to delineate just when exactly 'your' utopian agricultural society ended, and the 'your interpreted evil' consumer society's began. The fact that what you see before you now is but a continuum of the earliest tribal congregations, let alone agricultural society development seems to completely escape you. You fail to address how the balance of power will be decided in 'your agricultural utopia' in light of unevenly productive landscapes.
You completely fail to account for species, and environment displacement, degradation, fragmentation, genetic unviability, and localised extinction, on prime agricultural lands in 'your utopian agricultural society', and displacement of indigenous species and anthropogenic caused desertification of grazing woodlands and rangelands.
Most ridiculous of all, you advocate a complete abandonment of environmental sunk costs (in the form of every bit of material used to build cities, urban, and suburban settlements and attendent infrastructure to date) to return to your unsustainable rural lifestyles. You completely fail to offer any rational explanation as to how these populations will be then housed and fed, and how the disastrous impact that such a mass exodus would cause on critters and environments could even me ameliorated.
You fail to acknowledge any pre-industrial learning, such as the earliest formation of tools, to the scientific method, and the circa millenial Islamic collation and translation, and development of early Western learning. A continuing specialisation and societal embodying, and progression, made possible by the time afforded by agricultural food security, from tending to basic survival needs. You make no provision for the retention, comprehensive dissemination, and development of all constructive learning by humanity to date. Your rants are beyond unintellectual buffoonery, they are megalomaniacal, and dark.
You falsely state that the cause of overpopulation is Industrialisation. It is not. Population is caused by breeding. Overpopulation is caused by birth rates exceeding the death rates by a rate and margin large enough to exceed the capacity of the environment to sustain it given current technology and applied lifestyles. You accuse the West of being short-sighted. How short-sighted was it for India, and China not to predict decreasing death rates, and not adjust breeding rates accordingly. Extremely, given that both have populations well over 1 billion each.
You accuse the West of being morally bankrupt, suggesting a return to your nilhist society is the solution. Yet what of the West's initiative of their best idea - The National Parks. You have not answered any of the points raised with you about self-actualisation needs, or of the human task of mannifesting spiritual energy through creativity and expression. You ignore pre-industrial systematic paedophilia in many non-western countries that advocate child brides, and physical abuse through genital mutilation. You hold Eastern cultures up as authorities on spiritual and metaphysical enquiry and practice - and yet a woman is not safe in India from ingrained abuse, rape and murder. Nor are they free from subjugation in backwards patriarchal society, likewise, neither are any peoples born into 'lesser' castes.
You say that: (Originally Posted by sushil_yadav)
"The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too."
I would suggest that floods are experienced by idiots that build settlements on floodplains. The big clue for the uneducated comes in the parts of the word: "Flood" and "plain". After all, flooding is just a natural replenishment mechanism for the nutrient cycle. One that you would disrupt through biodiversity killing, and erosion causing, agriculture and in-situ settlement.
Sushil, although many here would agree with the need for a better, more environmentally respectful, and sustainable way forward, your incomplete, biased factoids, illogical arguements and conclusions, are unprofessional and completely ineffective. I will agree on the only points that you have correct - namely that (i) the decimation of the world's oceans was facilitated by industrial age tools, although I make the distinction: directed by people, for the consumption by people. (ii) that prime fertile lands [that were once prime woodlands and riparian wetlands] have been urbanised, concreted and paved over with an excess of transport infrastructure, although I again make another distinction: by people, for people.
Everything else you have said (cut and pasted ad nauseam) is complete and utter bunkum, and not worthy of the fine minds here on this forum.
Chosun :gh:
Your continued refusal to engage in reasoned debate, and answer in any genuine way, shape, or form, the logical positions put to you by myself, others, and ChrisB's post#282, and recent one above, is both highly insulting and totally ignorant.
As the last two posters have concluded, you have no intention to debate your illogical conclusions based on the irrefutably factual and soundly logical arguements put to you. This thread is just a(nother) self-serving platform for your juvenile West blaming, hate filled diatribe. Your derision of the cultural, creative, and spiritual aspects of the West, is nothing less than racial hubris.
You contend that agrarian society is sustainable. It is not. You fail to address all the pre-industrial society, and agricultural caused environmental collapses, and all the pre-industrial extinctions, put to you. You fail to delineate just when exactly 'your' utopian agricultural society ended, and the 'your interpreted evil' consumer society's began. The fact that what you see before you now is but a continuum of the earliest tribal congregations, let alone agricultural society development seems to completely escape you. You fail to address how the balance of power will be decided in 'your agricultural utopia' in light of unevenly productive landscapes.
You completely fail to account for species, and environment displacement, degradation, fragmentation, genetic unviability, and localised extinction, on prime agricultural lands in 'your utopian agricultural society', and displacement of indigenous species and anthropogenic caused desertification of grazing woodlands and rangelands.
Most ridiculous of all, you advocate a complete abandonment of environmental sunk costs (in the form of every bit of material used to build cities, urban, and suburban settlements and attendent infrastructure to date) to return to your unsustainable rural lifestyles. You completely fail to offer any rational explanation as to how these populations will be then housed and fed, and how the disastrous impact that such a mass exodus would cause on critters and environments could even me ameliorated.
You fail to acknowledge any pre-industrial learning, such as the earliest formation of tools, to the scientific method, and the circa millenial Islamic collation and translation, and development of early Western learning. A continuing specialisation and societal embodying, and progression, made possible by the time afforded by agricultural food security, from tending to basic survival needs. You make no provision for the retention, comprehensive dissemination, and development of all constructive learning by humanity to date. Your rants are beyond unintellectual buffoonery, they are megalomaniacal, and dark.
You falsely state that the cause of overpopulation is Industrialisation. It is not. Population is caused by breeding. Overpopulation is caused by birth rates exceeding the death rates by a rate and margin large enough to exceed the capacity of the environment to sustain it given current technology and applied lifestyles. You accuse the West of being short-sighted. How short-sighted was it for India, and China not to predict decreasing death rates, and not adjust breeding rates accordingly. Extremely, given that both have populations well over 1 billion each.
You accuse the West of being morally bankrupt, suggesting a return to your nilhist society is the solution. Yet what of the West's initiative of their best idea - The National Parks. You have not answered any of the points raised with you about self-actualisation needs, or of the human task of mannifesting spiritual energy through creativity and expression. You ignore pre-industrial systematic paedophilia in many non-western countries that advocate child brides, and physical abuse through genital mutilation. You hold Eastern cultures up as authorities on spiritual and metaphysical enquiry and practice - and yet a woman is not safe in India from ingrained abuse, rape and murder. Nor are they free from subjugation in backwards patriarchal society, likewise, neither are any peoples born into 'lesser' castes.
You say that: (Originally Posted by sushil_yadav)
"The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too."
I would suggest that floods are experienced by idiots that build settlements on floodplains. The big clue for the uneducated comes in the parts of the word: "Flood" and "plain". After all, flooding is just a natural replenishment mechanism for the nutrient cycle. One that you would disrupt through biodiversity killing, and erosion causing, agriculture and in-situ settlement.
Sushil, although many here would agree with the need for a better, more environmentally respectful, and sustainable way forward, your incomplete, biased factoids, illogical arguements and conclusions, are unprofessional and completely ineffective. I will agree on the only points that you have correct - namely that (i) the decimation of the world's oceans was facilitated by industrial age tools, although I make the distinction: directed by people, for the consumption by people. (ii) that prime fertile lands [that were once prime woodlands and riparian wetlands] have been urbanised, concreted and paved over with an excess of transport infrastructure, although I again make another distinction: by people, for people.
Everything else you have said (cut and pasted ad nauseam) is complete and utter bunkum, and not worthy of the fine minds here on this forum.
Chosun :gh:
