Impacts of bird ringing (threads merged) (2 Viewers)

[burger]

Hi,
For a presentation I am doing, I need to examine the effects of bird ringing on the birds themselves.
I realise the question of whether or not ringing actually causes any sort of stress to birds is a subject of debate, but lets assume that it does have an impact on them in some way, until an experiment is designed that proves/disproves this.
So, I was wondering what aspects of a birds biology could be affected and in what ways, and whether there is any particular point in a birds' annual cycle where they might be particularly vulnerable?

If anyone has any suggestions, i would be most grateful!!

 

[John Morgan]

Hi,
For a presentation I am doing, I need to examine the effects of bird ringing on the birds themselves.
I realise the question of whether or not ringing actually causes any sort of stress to birds is a subject of debate, but lets assume that it does have an impact on them in some way, until an experiment is designed that proves/disproves this.
So, I was wondering what aspects of a birds biology could be affected and in what ways, and whether there is any particular point in a birds' annual cycle where they might be particularly vulnerable?

If anyone has any suggestions, i would be most grateful!!

On other fora within this birding internet community, you will find people who claim instances where ringing has interfered adversely with birds. You could begin by asking them for details - and perhaps demanding why they have not reported such instances to the Ringing Committee of the BTO or other relevant agency (they seem to be mainly Brits complaining, though)

Both the French scheme and the American scheme, perhaps others too, ask ringers to note the condition of the bird on release. There may be some useful stats for you there.

 

[Mark Grantham]

There isn't too much published on this, but the person to ask is coincidentally in Cardiff! Rob Thomas has been working on the effect of handling on birds, so have a look at his profile at:
http://www.cf.ac.uk/biosi/research/biodiversity/staff/RobThomas.html

It is quite a difficult thing to measure anyway, and anecdotal evidence will never really be representative. You probably impact (literally) more birds driving to your ringing site in the morning...

If you do have any specific questins then drop me a line and I can try to help you out.

Mark Grantham
BTO Ringing Scheme

 

[ayasuda]

Here's some information on problems banding frigatebirds and boobies, but you might have to pay for the full paper.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=15....0.CO;2-P&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/JFO/v037n02/p0126-p0127.pdf

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET/OC/experthelp/BBL2004.html You might be able to contact someone who could give you information regarding band choice and why.

 

[danehower]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I always wondered how banding would effect mating. Is it reasonable to assume that birds being highly visual creatures might find a banded bird less attractive as a mate? Could the band be inturpreted as a deformation and there for make it less attrative? I mean if you met a nice looking male/female at the pub and he/she was wearing a handcuff on one hand, wouldnt you think twice? - that was kind of a joke - but I am serious about the point.

 

[KorHaan]

This may seem like a stupid question, but I always wondered how banding would effect mating. Is it reasonable to assume that birds being highly visual creatures might find a banded bird less attractive as a mate? Could the band be inturpreted as a deformation and there for make it less attrative? I mean if you met a nice looking male/female at the pub and he/she was wearing a handcuff on one hand, wouldnt you think twice? - that was kind of a joke - but I am serious about the point.

I've read in the magazine of the Dutch RSPB ( "Vogelbescherming") that it had been scientifically proved right that ringed male birds attracted significantly less females than unringed birds, that is, when the males have one ring only. Apparently they appear asymmetric to the females and are therefor considered less attractive.
So in order to counteract this you could stop ringing them but I guess the males will be doubly ringed to solve the problem and keep the ringers happy.

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

Hi,
For a presentation I am doing, I need to examine the effects of bird ringing on the birds themselves.
I realise the question of whether or not ringing actually causes any sort of stress to birds is a subject of debate, but lets assume that it does have an impact on them in some way, until an experiment is designed that proves/disproves this.
So, I was wondering what aspects of a birds biology could be affected and in what ways, and whether there is any particular point in a birds' annual cycle where they might be particularly vulnerable?

If anyone has any suggestions, i would be most grateful!!

Hi Burger,

I would like to know the same things, not for a presentation but because I'm just being curious.
As I'm opposed to bird ringing for reasons of impact on individual birds maybe I could help you here with pointing out examples of specific ringing sessions. I hope that the experts on this forum don't mind me asking but I would sincerely like to learn from them and I do hope they will answer to my questions.

OK. Example:

How do catching and ringing of Long Eared Owls on their winter roosts affect their daily cycle? They are caught in daytime, when they're supposed to be sleeping. Is this stressfull for the owls? Does it affect their ability to hunt succesfully the following night? Are they put back in the tree they were in, or do they fly off after release?
Anyone involved with this specific type of ringing can shed some light on this?
Thank you.

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

Example 2:

It has been known that Waterrails kill small birds caught in mist nets set up in reedbeds, and after killing them eating their brains. How is this being dealt with by bird ringers? Have there been taking measures to prevent this?
Anyone familiar with this practical problem would like to answer?

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

Example 3:

What is the impact on the daily cycle of a breeding pair of birds of prey, let's say Goshawk, when bird ringers approach the nesting tree, climb it, scare off the parents, put the chicks in sacks, lower them down to be weighed, measured and ringed on the ground, the man up in the tree staying there all the time sometimes being attacked by the stressed parents, then the chicks being hauled up again, put back in the nest and the ringing party taking off?
Anyone involved with this type of ringing like to answer?
Thank you.

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

Example 4:

What could be the impact on a duck being caught and being given a nose saddle, a brightly coloured plastic (?) tag attached through/in (?) the nostrils ?
Does it affect feeding behaviour of say, a Tufted Duck with a nose saddle? Does it influence the ability to find a mate? Is there anything known about possible reduced breathing ability?
The same questions apply to a Great Crested Grebe I saw with a bright red plastic(?) nose ring, sticking up like a piercing on a teenager.
Any noseringer would like to answer this one?
Thank you.

I would really appreciate all your expert opinions, I stress this has nothing to do with my personal disapproval but I would certainly want to gain insight in an objective manner. That is the only reason I'm stating my questions.

Greetings, Ronald

 

[DEREK.C.]

I have never liked the idea of ringing wild birds,although i know valuable information is gained by doing so.
My past experiences of keeping and breeding British Finches when i was younger left a lot of bad memories.
One that stands out was the amount of agitation the rings caused to the bird. Once rung all the bird would do for the following 2-3 days was try to get the ring off its leg, some wouldnt eat for days, they were so stressed. Some species seemed to be worse than others, and once i even had a Brambling bite its own foot off to free the ring .
As for handling Wild Birds it goes without saying how terrified they are, although they cant show it, on average 1 in 20 of my finches would die of a heart attack if handled for a considerable time , some a good few hours later, and remember these were all aviary bred and reasonably tame compared to wild birds.
The biggest nightmare was ringing the young at 5 days old with closed metal rings , as the law states. You could be sure particulary with Bullfinchs ,the young would be all thrown out of the nest next morning.

 

[DEREK.C.]

O ne thing i`ve wondered , how many rings does the law state you can put on a wild bird , or more specifically on one leg?
Birds bred in captivity, it is illegal to have more than one on each leg, for safety reasons.

 

[Sue Wright]

I'm so pleased to see others asking the questions I'd also dearly like the answers to. The nightmare tales we hear about seem to be even worse than I'd originally thought.

I too would like to know the limit to the number of rings per Bird, especially after seeing Terns at Weymouth with 3 on each leg!

Sue.

 

[KorHaan]

Well,

Since the experts are still silent I'll put in another question.

I've heard a story of a ringnecked Bewick's Swan or a Whooper ( sorry for not being specific but it's years ago ) who drowned in severe winter conditions when ice was forming around the ring, and accumulating to the point the bird no longer could hold its head up. I state specifically it's hearsay, but from a trustworthy source, and not scientifically reported unfortunately.

Is there anything known about this happening? Are there more reports? Is there anything known as to how this could have happened? If so, what could be the cause? And are measures taken to prevent this from happening in future ringing of swans?

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

I have never liked the idea of ringing wild birds,although i know valuable information is gained by doing so.
My past experiences of keeping and breeding British Finches when i was younger left a lot of bad memories.
One that stands out was the amount of agitation the rings caused to the bird. Once rung all the bird would do for the following 2-3 days was try to get the ring off its leg, some wouldnt eat for days, they were so stressed. Some species seemed to be worse than others, and once i even had a Brambling bite its own foot off to free the ring .
As for handling Wild Birds it goes without saying how terrified they are, although they cant show it, on average 1 in 20 of my finches would die of a heart attack if handled for a considerable time , some a good few hours later, and remember these were all aviary bred and reasonably tame compared to wild birds.
The biggest nightmare was ringing the young at 5 days old with closed metal rings , as the law states. You could be sure particulary with Bullfinchs ,the young would be all thrown out of the nest next morning.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, Derek.
I didn't know that.

I think the logical question would be here to ask the experts if wild birds who are ringed and released suffer from stress in the same way. If so, is this reported or is it kept silent by ringers as a cover up?
I know this sounds like I'm accusing people without any reason, so maybe the question should be: have there ever been experiments in laboratories to actually measure the amount of stress, before ringing in the field was unleashed on such a massive scale?

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

My next question is a bit off-topic, but it's important to the debate I think.

As bird ringers state rightfully, ringing gains important scientific knowledge for the benefit of bird populations.
I know Tawny Owls do participate in ringing programmes, but the only knowledge that has come out so far is, that they're sedentary birds who do not migrate, the young only wandering after the breeding season to find a spot for their own. We already knew that. It's stated in every field guide. So why keep ringing them? The only obvious reason I can think of would be knowledge on longevity in the wild. Is it that important to know that a Tawny Owl can live to be 20 years old in the wild?
Or could there be other reasons for continued ringing that I'm not aware of?

Greetings, Ronald

 

[Sue Wright]

A very good point to raise Ronald and not a bit off-topic.

I honestly believe that a great deal of ringing is done as a result of people just wishing to delve further and further into Birds' lives, no matter what the consequences may be. Surely the whole point of Nature is that much of it should remain secret, for us to wonder about. It won't be half so interesting for future generations to try to discover things about Nature as they will already have been found and leave nothing for them to be amazed at as should be the case.

Sue.

 

[danehower]

A very good point to raise Ronald and not a bit off-topic.

I honestly believe that a great deal of ringing is done as a result of people just wishing to delve further and further into Birds' lives, no matter what the consequences may be. Surely the whole point of Nature is that much of it should remain secret, for us to wonder about. It won't be half so interesting for future generations to try to discover things about Nature as they will already have been found and leave nothing for them to be amazed at as should be the case.

Sue.

Not to put too fine a point on it , but I hear what Sue is saying. I would feel a strong degree of comfort in knowing that there are places and creatures on this earth that have not been tampered with by the sometimes fumbling hands of mankind. Now, I understand the need for us to have knowledge in preserving what is out there - but considering how us humans have managed our own affairs , arnt somethings better left alone? Sorry to deverge - back to the subject

 

[KorHaan]

A very good point to raise Ronald and not a bit off-topic.

I honestly believe that a great deal of ringing is done as a result of people just wishing to delve further and further into Birds' lives, no matter what the consequences may be. Surely the whole point of Nature is that much of it should remain secret, for us to wonder about. It won't be half so interesting for future generations to try to discover things about Nature as they will already have been found and leave nothing for them to be amazed at as should be the case.

Sue.

Hi Sue,

I have to agree and disagree with you; on the subject of us wondering about nature, yes, I agree, but people are curious, that's in the human character, so they do want to find out things that are not yet known. To do so in a more scientific way has given us a vast insight in birds' lives. That includes bird ringing too; if it weren't for ringing we would still believe today the Cuckoo turns into a Sparrow Hawk during winter, or that Swallows hibernate in the mud of ponds and lakes.
My main concern with the whole issue of bird ringing is to pose questions about the necessity of ringing, and I try to do that in an objective manner that will allow the ringers to answer in an objective way. I suspect ringing is sometimes continued just for the fun of it, with little scientific gain.
On the other hand migration routes are constantly being threatened, and may be changing, so it would be a good thing to know about that to protect important feeding grounds and winter areas.

Since I feel I'm already playing the role of the devils advocate here I might throw in something for you to think about.
Lesser White-Fronted Geese have been wintering in the Netherlands for several years now, in the company of Barnacle Geese always. They have been on the brink of extinction due to massive hunting in their breeding and wintering territories in Asia, until bird preservationists took measures by taking eggs of LWFG and putting them in the nests of Barnacle Geese in hunting-free breeding grounds. When the eggs hatched the Lesser White-Fronted Geese followed their new Barnacle family to safe wintering grounds in Western Europe, thus outside the reach of guns, and thus ensuring the population to grow again. Monitoring this was done by ringing of course, to acknowledge this manipulation actually worked. Well, it did, so bird ringing can be of great benefit.

But I digress, it's not a subject I myself should have put forward, but the forum members who are expert on ringing.
But do keep following the posts on this thread, because I think the heat is on soon...

Greetings, Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

Not to put too fine a point on it , but I hear what Sue is saying. I would feel a strong degree of comfort in knowing that there are places and creatures on this earth that have not been tampered with by the sometimes fumbling hands of mankind. Now, I understand the need for us to have knowledge in preserving what is out there - but considering how us humans have managed our own affairs , arnt somethings better left alone? Sorry to deverge - back to the subject

Hi Dave,

I feel the same way. But bird ringing has become institutionalised on a vast scale. It has the characteristics of a religion nowadays; the only thing for me to do something about it is asking questions, as I stated before. And I ALWAYS ignore neckrings on geese and swans when I'm out in the field, though I could read them easily with my scope.... I'm not willing to contribute to the institution as long as there's no proof the birds aren't bothered by the rings. Call me stubborn, call me a spoilsport, but I like my birds pure and pristine. :-O

Greetings, Ronald