I think I have a correct ID on a Broad-Winged Hawk in Los Angeles. Help! (1 Viewer)

[jjs4you2]

Over the last few months I have noticed a semi-large, what I thought at the time was a Falcon, I'm legally blind and you will agree when you see the photos;-) I did some Googling and I think these birds are Broad Winged Hawks which there is a parent bird and two juveniles. Of late (a week) I have only seen the youngins but not the parent bird. I have found photos on the Internet of Broad-Winged Hawks that are an exact copy of my b irds I have photographed but then I would see other photos of B-W Hawks and they look nothing like mine! So I'm gonna let the experts decide. I live in the suburbs of Los Angeles in the San Fernando Valley in Granada Hills. What I have read is that if these are Broad-Winged Hawks they are on the wrong side of the States, they don't usually make it west of Texas. They seem to be very rare here in Southern California. These birds are out on the poles every morning and evening plus I hear them all day long because they are very vocal especially when the Mocking birds are bothering them. So, I'm going to leave it up to the Hawk experts to decide what they are.

Thanks Joe

 

[Tiraya]

If ithis bird(s) is/are resident it is unlikely to be Broad-winged. They have been recorded here before.
However I can't see why this isn't just a juvenile Red-shouldered, though I have no experience of this bird (Broad-winged that is).

Also, if the birds are vocal then compare the voices to those on here:
Red-shouldered

The first recording on that page is Red-shouldered and the one directly underneath is a Broad-winged for comparison (under Similar Sounding).

 

[Larry Lade]

I am undecided but sort of lean toward the Broad-winged because of the coloration and shape of the breast/belly marking (even though this would be a rare find). It might be the more expected Red-shouldered Hawk though. These juveniles appear to be quite young, judging from the very short tails. It would really be helpful if you could get a photo of the adult bird.

Perhaps you can make a determination after listening to some of the recorded calls as suggested in the above post.

 

[ceasar]

I think it is a juvenile Broad-winged Hawk. See my comments in thread #8 where you earlier posted these pictures. The arrowhead shaped markings on the bird's flank are a juvenile Broad-winged trait.

They are very uncommon in California but Wheeler's RAPTORS of Western North America at pages 249-251 discusses their Status and Distribution at length. See page 250. They have been recorded in Marin County, the Central Valley and from Sonoma County down to San Diego. A juvenile was even seen on San Clemente Island in 2001.

A similar photo of a juvenile (moderately streaked type) showing the arrowhead shaped markings can be seen at plate #256 in the above book and at plate 261 (probably the same bird as 256).

Bob

 

[jjs4you2]

If ithis bird(s) is/are resident it is unlikely to be Broad-winged. They have been recorded here before.
However I can't see why this isn't just a juvenile Red-shouldered, though I have no experience of this bird (Broad-winged that is).

Also, if the birds are vocal then compare the voices to those on here:
Red-shouldered

The first recording on that page is Red-shouldered and the one directly underneath is a Broad-winged for comparison (under Similar Sounding).

Silverwolf, You may have misread on the Red Shld Hawk page, the picture below is still the Red Shld Hawk. I posted the Broad Winged Hawks page from your site below.

Check out this photo below of a BW Hawk from your site you posted, the beak is identical, the shape of the brown spots on the chest are the same heart shape, the back of the wings are also. The sound of this bird sounds more like my bird, but not quite right, while the Red Shld Hawk's sound I didn't recognize.


http://identify.whatbird.com/obj/35/_/Broad-winged_Hawk.aspx


Take the above photo and minimize it along with my photo below and put them next to each other, they look like the parent bird that has left the area and the young ones that are still here when I would see them up on the pole together (at the time I figure it was a Red Tail Hawk so I didn't take photos of them. Red Tails are a dime a dozen here.... I think once this bird matures it will lose that little bit of white above and on the sides of the beak. Also, once this bird grows a tail we should be able to get a better idea of what it is. Hopefully the birds will stick around for a while.





Silverwolf, thanks for the input, It's greatly appreciated.

 

[jjs4you2]

I am undecided but sort of lean toward the Broad-winged because of the coloration and shape of the breast/belly marking (even though this would be a rare find). It might be the more expected Red-shouldered Hawk though. These juveniles appear to be quite young, judging from the very short tails. It would really be helpful if you could get a photo of the adult bird.

Perhaps you can make a determination after listening to some of the recorded calls as suggested in the above post.

Hey Larry, Silverwolf sent me a web addy that has recorded calls and the BW Hawks is closest to my birds here but not quite right and the Red Shld Hawk has the exact recording as the BW Hawk that I think is a mistake, actually it has two different sound tracks so I don't know what's right? Just about a week ago these juv Hawks had major pure white fluff (that's what I call it, new to all this) on the chest, legs, under the wings and a lot under the tail. I keep finding clumps of it in my pool so yeah, these birds are young.

The Adult bird has not been around in over a week now and I did not see the other juv bird at all today, that one has more white around the beak.

Larry, thanks for the input.

 

[jjs4you2]

I think it is a juvenile Broad-winged Hawk. See my comments in thread #8 where you earlier posted these pictures. The arrowhead shaped markings on the bird's flank are a juvenile Broad-winged trait.

They are very uncommon in California but Wheeler's RAPTORS of Western North America at pages 249-251 discusses their Status and Distribution at length. See page 250. They have been recorded in Marin County, the Central Valley and from Sonoma County down to San Diego. A juvenile was even seen on San Clemente Island in 2001.

A similar photo of a juvenile (moderately streaked type) showing the arrowhead shaped markings can be seen at plate #256 in the above book and at plate 261 (probably the same bird as 256).

Bob

Thanks for the great info Bob. You know every time I match up the R-S Hawk with my birds I don't get as many similarities as when I do the same with the photos of the BW Hawks I've seen.

The markings on the chest are a dead on match with the BW Hawks in a lot of the photos but when I see drawings of that bird the drawings always look way to dark and the markings look to well defined. I'm going to keep looking. Tomorrow I'm going to try and get photos of these birds in flight, that might clear up some things!

Thanks
Joe

 

[ceasar]

Joe,
Wheeler doesn't have many photo's of juvenile "California" B. i. elegans Red-shouldered Hawks. One of an "Eastern" lineatus also shows "blobs" on it's chest. RSH's outnumber BWH's in California greatly.

It can be difficult at times to distinguish between juveniles of RSH and BWH. Even the tail barring can be similar.

If you see them soaring try to count the "fingers" on the end of the wing. A BWH will show 4 "fingers" on the end of the wings and a dark band along the bottom length of the under wing. And it's wings are rather pointed and tulip shaped. And they often show a white throat. A RSH will show a transparent crescent shaped panel or "window" at the base of it's 6 fingers when soaring. It can also have a black band along the length of the underwing too. And they both can show a dark malar mark on the under jaw as yours does.

Note, I said I "think" your birds are BWH's.

Good luck with your new photographs. It will be a learning experience for all of us.

Bob

 

[Tiraya]

Hey Larry, Silverwolf sent me a web addy that has recorded calls and the BW Hawks is closest to my birds here but not quite right and the Red Shld Hawk has the exact recording as the BW Hawk that I think is a mistake, actually it has two different sound tracks so I don't know what's right?
Larry, thanks for the input.

The first recording on the Red-shouldered page is the Red-shouldered, and the one underneath "Similar Sounding" is the Broad-winged. Yes, it seems that no one has got around to naming the recordings in this section. Certainly caused me some confusion too. To verify the 2nd recording on the RS page was BW, I went on the Broad-winged page and listened to it's recording.

Red-shouldered has a very distinctive call, exactly like the one on that site (I can hear one outside my window right now), so if it doesn't sound like a RS, then it likely isn't.

 

[Tiraya]

Actually, if these bird(s) are still there I definately would not mind seeing them since I live about 35 minutes drive away from this area. If you are willing to then you can PM the address.

 

[peterginsburg]

Two points. Note the barred secondaries. The vast majority of Broad-winged Hawk records for this area are of Fall migrants.

Peter

 

[ceasar]

Two points. Note the barred secondaries. The vast majority of Broad-winged Hawk records for this area are of Fall migrants.

Peter

I did check for this on the secondaries but they don't look right to me. And there is also what appears to be a narrow dark line on the white throat which BWH's have.

I dunno?:h?:

Bob

 

[JANJ]

Hello all.

As I have seen these pic before, check out my respons here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=192108

JanJ

 

[Tiraya]

Two points. Note the barred secondaries. The vast majority of Broad-winged Hawk records for this area are of Fall migrants.

Peter

Note that he has seen them for a few months, meaning they would have come around about April. "Fall migrants" tend to be in September.

Also, how is Cooper's being ruled out here, other than by breast markings?

EDIT: I see JANJ has brought this up too.

 

[ceasar]

The bird doesn't look like an accipiter to me-especially with that tail, but a Cooper's Hawk has such a distinctive call that maybe Joe should listen to it here to compare with what he has heard? It is much different than RSH and BWH calls.

http://identify.whatbird.com/obj/36/overview/Coopers_Hawk.aspx

Bob

Bob.

 

[jjs4you2]

OK folks, It's not a Coopers, that sounds nothing like my birds call, but what I heard today was the BWH call from that web site but with a slightly lower pitch! It sounds like someone stepping on a dogs rubber chew toy or young child's rubber ducky! When you step on it the air comes out faster with a higher pitch whistle sound than when your foot comes off the toy and the air gets sucked back in, so it sounds like someone stepping on a rubber chew toy for the first part of the call, then stepping off it for the second part. It's a WEEEEEEEwoooooooo whistle sound. I pay'd close attention to the calls all day long and I also went through every call of every type of Hawk on the Internet and the BWH is what I heard outside today.

I didn't get a chance at taking more photos because it never came to my tel-pole, it hung out at a pole about 6 houses down, then every time I heard it outside it was up in my neighbors big tree behind my house. Once it's in that tree it's really hard to get any good photos, the tree is really thick and really tall, but I'll try again tomorrow. I can record the call it makes also.

Thanks
Joe

 

[Po'ouli]

It sounds like you have convinced yourself it is a broad-winged hawk, which would be an extraordinary record for California. This needs to be reported to the LA Rare Bird Alert hotline ([email protected]). If you are open to additional input from experts, you should post your photos to Frontiers of Bird ID (
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?P1&L=birdwg01) and see what they say.

 

[ceasar]

It sounds like you have convinced yourself it is a broad-winged hawk, which would be an extraordinary record for California. This needs to be reported to the LA Rare Bird Alert hotline ([email protected]). If you are open to additional input from experts, you should post your photos to Frontiers of Bird ID (
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?P1&L=birdwg01) and see what they say.

Good idea!

Meanwhile Joe should keep trying to get a photo of them flying. Maybe then it can be determined how many "fingers" they have at the end of their wings.

Bob

 

[JANJ]

Joe´s raptor is NOT a Broad-winged.
Imagen a long tail and you ghave a Cooper´s Hawk!
Structure, head and bill size + pattern and broadness of the visible secondaries has obvious dark banding, usually all dark or with a sligt tendecy to not so obvious banding in Broad-winged

JanJ

 

[The Falcon]

Joe´s raptor is NOT a Broad-winged.
Imagen a long tail and you ghave a Cooper´s Hawk!
Structure, head and bill size + pattern and broadness of the visible secondaries has obvious dark banding, usually all dark or with a sligt tendecy to not so obvious banding in Broad-winged

JanJ

I agree. Shape/structure is wrong for a buteo.