AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
It does seem to have a couple of very tiny white flecks over the front of the eye, visible on both sides.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
House x Tree Sparrow? (or italiae?!) Norfolk UK (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andy Benson
- Start date
As another poster above mentioned, seems to be most frequent in areas where one species in uncommon or in fragmented population. Given the decline of Tree Sparrow in the UK, increased hybridisation has to be considered a possibility.
Example here is similar case where a number of pairs hybridised over two or three years on islands off Norway.
The authors of this study believed that a surviving young of one such pair was was fertile.
Last edited:
John Cantelo
Well-known member
There have been several long staying Spanish Sparrows in the UK (and doubtless more that haven't been recorded) which, given its well known tendency to hybridise with House Sparrow, makes the idea that our House Sparrow population may contain some Spanish Sparrow genes not at all outlandish. Hence I find the idea that this bird may be an example of this genetic heritage more convincing than speculation that it may be an aberrant House Sparrow.
I have a photograph somewhere that I took some years ago- early 90s I think- in Herts of an odd sparrow. It had a grey crown and black cheek spots. Is wasn't a particularly clear picture but these features could be seen. I sent it to BB and they replied back that they had shown it to Dennis Summers-Smith and he considered it to be a House x Tree. I will try and find it and post it on here. It is very unlike the bird of the OP.
phil baber
Clipped Wing
It is an interesting Spuggie. I reckon a dominant House (from the bib size) with some "throwback genes..."
ps Like Herring Gulls sometimes show yellow legs. A theory only...
ps Like Herring Gulls sometimes show yellow legs. A theory only...
Richard Prior
Halfway up an Alp
I agree with Phil. I live in the French Alps not far from Geneva,at one of the local reserves just on the Swiss side of the border, there's been a House/Tree Sparrow hybrid which calls like a House Sparrow, mixes with House Sparrows, but has a chestnut crown and the 'shadow' of a cheek spot.
Italian Sparrow is slowly colonising Alpine villages in Southeast France near the Italy/France border, we've had a male around our place for 4 years now, breeding with a House Sparrow female, so we've a few male hybrids domesticus/italiae, they have thin white super before and after the eye, reduced amount of grey on the head with brown flecks, more chestnut at the rear of the head than is typical for domesticus, whiter cheeks and underparts and 'warmer/brighter' upperparts.l attach a couple of photos to demonstrate . First photo is the hybrid, second one the 'pure' Italian(as it were!)
Italian Sparrow is slowly colonising Alpine villages in Southeast France near the Italy/France border, we've had a male around our place for 4 years now, breeding with a House Sparrow female, so we've a few male hybrids domesticus/italiae, they have thin white super before and after the eye, reduced amount of grey on the head with brown flecks, more chestnut at the rear of the head than is typical for domesticus, whiter cheeks and underparts and 'warmer/brighter' upperparts.l attach a couple of photos to demonstrate . First photo is the hybrid, second one the 'pure' Italian(as it were!)
Attachments
Last edited:
phil baber
Clipped Wing
I'm interested after seeing these better images. Enough for further analysis perhaps?http://letterfromnorfolk.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/more-on-that-possible-italian-sparrow/
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Given that Italian Sparrow is reckoned to be a stabilised House X Spanish Sparrows hybrid could one ever be identified with confidence in the UK? As I noted earlier the vagrancy and subsequent long staying of Spanish Sparrow, although rare, is well established. Were this bird in an areas where such birds have been known to have occurred wouldn't this bird have been widely regarded as a SpanishxHouse hybrid? Since we obviously don't find all vagrants then a bird with some Spanish genes appearing doesn't seem at all far fetched to me.
Here's a photo of a (rather wet) Italian Sparrow taken in November in Venice. As I recall some birds had more of a white 'eyebrow' than this bird, but some had less.
Here's a photo of a (rather wet) Italian Sparrow taken in November in Venice. As I recall some birds had more of a white 'eyebrow' than this bird, but some had less.
Attachments
claudio93
Member
I just add a picture of a male pure italiae taken last july...it shows white supercilium and a very small hint of grey on the head, not very common... but hybrids italiae/domesticus usually shows more grey here in the Alps, like the second picture, till the typical head pattern of House...
In the Norfolk bird the extensive grey rump fits the House/Tree?? maybe a second generation hybrid...
In the Norfolk bird the extensive grey rump fits the House/Tree?? maybe a second generation hybrid...
Attachments
Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
I was thinking it looks very pure grey for House x Tree, I'm sure the photos/paintings I've seen had brownish grey rumps, less extensive bib etc. I think the House Sparrow with that extra rufous in its plumage condition is most likely to be honest. Especially given that the Norfolk bird shows very obvious rufous in the side of the bib
Similar threads
