Goshawks and impact on the ecosystem (1 Viewer)

[Himalaya]

A pair of Goshawks have managed to raise 2 young at an undisclosed location. They weren't discovered until fledging. They nested in deciduous trees as opposed to conifers. The female is a large bird. The pair was never spotted displaying together but separately unless they moved location. There seems to be changes locally. Certain species seem less obvious over the last few years, since the birds started showing. Green Woodpeckers seem to have vanished. Sparrowhawks are around but less showy - in fact a Goshawk was seen chasing a Sparrowhawk around. 3-5 Kestrel families would be evident around but so far 1 family with maybe 2 young was seen and that briefly. A few Kestrels are around but the late summer family parties are sadly missing. Mistle Thrushes seem invisible and at this time of year I would expect to have seen flocks numbering 6-20. Great Spotted Woodpeckers seem quiet and numbers seem very low too. Everyday a pair of recently fledged Black Headed Gull wings were found around a local reservoir - the body missing. A Barn Owl carcass was found near the nest. Magpie and Jay numbers seem less too. Ravens have nested about a mile away from the Goshawk site for a couple of decades and there families very vocal and active post-fledging. They have fledged young but the a family were seen very earl y on in Spring but not after. They seem subdued and stopped crossing over the trees where the Goshawk nested pretty early on in the season. I fact I remember them cronking in an anxious way over that spot i n very early Spring once.
There are lots of Carrion Crows and Woodpigeons still around - they don't seem impacted ..yet! A pair of Buzzards that nested in the wood has moved.

Do people have breeding Goshawks on their patch or nearby and if so do they notice changes?

 

[Farnboro John]

Our ecosystem in the UK is distorted in many ways. Obviously the shortage of larger predators that is the legacy of centuries of unsustainable hunting, followed by Victorian pressure on medium sized predators (and below, though that is harder to achieve) is one of them.

As that pressure has come off, the pressure that those predators exert on the ecosystem has come back on. It's not just Goshawks: it seems to me apparent that the restoration of Buzzard to country-wide status has reduced the number of Kestrels, quite likely by direct predation.

However, I sense a certain antipathy in your post towards your local changes and therefore towards Goshawks, which it's not impossible the hunting Victorians will pick up on and use as propaganda in their constant war against predators. So be careful how you proceed.

John

 

[Xenospiza]

The appearance of Goshawk in the Dutch dunes was thought to have led to the disappearance (or at least decrease) of Hobbies. But the decrease of Hobbies over the last 25 years continued in areas where there was no change in Goshawk densities – or even a decrease!
Goshawks were also blamed in helping Black Grouse go extinct.
It is of course much easier to blame the predator than the underlying human causes.

My local Goshawks hunt Carrion Crows and Wood Pigeons, but as these do very well in modern agriculture you don't notice the effects. Rare birds which are already suffering and get taken by chance are of course much more likely to disappear completely. For species that are under stress from dwindling or ever less suitable habitat (e.g. Lapwings) the presence of any predator (Goshawk, Buzzard, Fox) will be felt immediately.

 

[pppppvvvv]

Predators are a sign of a healthy ecosystem.
Maybe that should be amended to read, "long term presence" is the sign of a healthy ecosystem.

There's nothing to stop a predator moving in to an unhealthy ecosystem, "finishing it off", getting blamed, and moving out!

Regardless of whether the Goshawk moves in, or not. It's still a weak, unhealthy ecosystem of which we have many examples in UK.

 

[Xenospiza]

There's nothing to stop a predator moving in to an unhealthy ecosystem, "finishing it off", getting blamed, and moving out!

That is a good way of putting it.

 

[PYRTLE]

What about the numbers of Grey Squirrels in the area? Has that also decreased?

 

[Himalaya]

Actually I l

Our ecosystem in the UK is distorted in many ways. Obviously the shortage of larger predators that is the legacy of centuries of unsustainable hunting, followed by Victorian pressure on medium sized predators (and below, though that is harder to achieve) is one of them.

As that pressure has come off, the pressure that those predators exert on the ecosystem has come back on. It's not just Goshawks: it seems to me apparent that the restoration of Buzzard to country-wide status has reduced the number of Kestrels, quite likely by direct predation.

However, I sense a certain antipathy in your post towards your local changes and therefore towards Goshawks, which it's not impossible the hunting Victorians will pick up on and use as propaganda in their constant war against predators. So be careful how you proceed.

John

Ove

Our ecosystem in the UK is distorted in many ways. Obviously the shortage of larger predators that is the legacy of centuries of unsustainable hunting, followed by Victorian pressure on medium sized predators (and below, though that is harder to achieve) is one of them.

As that pressure has come off, the pressure that those predators exert on the ecosystem has come back on. It's not just Goshawks: it seems to me apparent that the restoration of Buzzard to country-wide status has reduced the number of Kestrels, quite likely by direct predation.

However, I sense a certain antipathy in your post towards your local changes and therefore towards Goshawks, which it's not impossible the hunting Victorians will pick up on and use as propaganda in their constant war against predators. So be careful how you proceed.

John

Actually I love the fact they have nested at a place I am fond of. It is a great honour they have chosen this place. I have been watching them since 2015 on off so it has been a long wait. They are my favourite bird of prey. I do understand your concerns and can see how these comments can be manipulated. It's one of the few places that could have had a successfull Goshawk nest within an hour so I'd chose them over the others.

 

[Himalaya]

What about the numbers of Grey Squirrels in the area? Has that also decreased?

Low
Bit lower than before or maybe even a lot? Definitely decreased

 

[Himalaya]

The appearance of Goshawk in the Dutch dunes was thought to have led to the disappearance (or at least decrease) of Hobbies. But the decrease of Hobbies over the last 25 years continued in areas where there was no change in Goshawk densities – or even a decrease!
Goshawks were also blamed in helping Black Grouse go extinct.
It is of course much easier to blame the predator than the underlying human causes.

My local Goshawks hunt Carrion Crows and Wood Pigeons, but as these do very well in modern agriculture you don't notice the effects. Rare birds which are already suffering and get taken by chance are of course much more likely to disappear completely. For species that are under stress from dwindling or ever less suitable habitat (e.g. Lapwings) the presence of any predator (Goshawk, Buzzard, Fox) will be felt immediately.

Our local Lapwings have had a brilliant year this year. 15-20 pairs in 2 fields and often up to 13 chicks visible at once. A good proportion of the Lapwing pairs got young off from first clutches. Unprecedented in our local area! They nest about a mile away from the Goshawk nest

 

[Farnboro John]

Our local Lapwings have had a brilliant year this year. 15-20 pairs in 2 fields and often up to 13 chicks visible at once. A good proportion of the Lapwing pairs got young off from first clutches. Unprecedented in our local area! They nest about a mile away from the Goshawk nest

Maybe the Goshawk effect on Corvids is more important to the Lapwings than the possibility of direct predation by the hawks? Certainly at my local gravel pits Lapwings have been annihilated year on year at the chick stage by Carrion Crows.

John

 

[Original PaulE]

Our local Lapwings have had a brilliant year this year. 15-20 pairs in 2 fields and often up to 13 chicks visible at once. A good proportion of the Lapwing pairs got young off from first clutches. Unprecedented in our local area! They nest about a mile away from the Goshawk nest

A warden I spoke to at a reserve in Wales a few years ago was bemoaning the effect of Goshawks on "his" Lapwings, seen a number predated apparently, on your main post most of the birds you describe as lower in numbers, predate small birds so will be interesting to see if you note an increase in the smaller birds, Tits, Finches and the like in the area. Of course it is difficult with a single observer to get accurate results. But in my area seem a lot less birds in general at the moment maybe a result of the drought, which I hope will be temporary! It may also be that the birds you have mentioned have changed their behaviour because of the Goshawks and therefore are less visible, our Sparrows certainly changed there behaviour once we started having regular visits from a Sprawk, far less time spent at the feeders, diving into cover at the faintest noise/movement but numbers overall don't seem much reduced!
Like you I'm a fan of top predators I personally think the environment overall will benefit, though some species may suffer, such as Kestrels!

 

[PYRTLE]

Actually I l

Ove



Actually I love the fact they have nested at a place I am fond of. It is a great honour they have chosen this place. I have been watching them since 2015 on off so it has been a long wait. They are my favourite bird of prey. I do understand your concerns and can see how these comments can be manipulated. It's one of the few places that could have had a successfull Goshawk nest within an hour so I'd chose them over the others.

 

[wolfbirder]

There are 3 pairs of Gos in a large wood near me, of course you only see them during display so I only go to watch for around a month, but every other day. The same wood also holds up 6 Buzzard pairs, a few Sparrowhawk pairs, and Kestrel breed nearby. Peregrine, Red Kite also seen sporadically as well as a few pairs of Ravens. Lapwings breed in the adjacent fields and Green Woodpecker and Great Spotted are there . Even had one of the reintroduced White-tailed Eagles for a few days.

The Gos’s only seem to hunt Wood Pigeons or Stock Doves. Maybe Fieldfare and Redwing flocks if they are present. Mistle Thrushes are present every year so their numbers remain unchanged. I’ve never seen them hunt over the adjacent field for Lapwings. There is a pool in the centre which holds wildfowl and I don’t know if they hunt those.

 

[Torchepot]

My feeling is that Goshawks are not too fussy about prey species (though size and potential for injury while subduing them are likely factors). Spent a fair bit of time with nesting birds in France and UK and wood pigeon, crows and pheasants are the only prey species that I have personally witnessed. I asked someone who had been studying an area, long term, that was suddenly colonised by a pair of Goshawk exactly the same question - ie had he noticed any impact on local populations of prey species. He told me that the first thing to be noticeably affected was the rabbit population and then the magpies, he had a feeling that Jays were also less common but grey squirrel population seemed unchanged. He mentioned that as an opportunist and generalist predator the “low hanging fruit“ were the first to be picked off.
I have read elsewhere that some pairs (individuals?) may show target species preferences - particularly with grey squirrels which can be largely ignored by some birds but severely impacted by others.

 

[Himalaya]

A warden I spoke to at a reserve in Wales a few years ago was bemoaning the effect of Goshawks on "his" Lapwings, seen a number predated apparently, on your main post most of the birds you describe as lower in numbers, predate small birds so will be interesting to see if you note an increase in the smaller birds, Tits, Finches and the like in the area. Of course it is difficult with a single observer to get accurate results. But in my area seem a lot less birds in general at the moment maybe a result of the drought, which I hope will be temporary! It may also be that the birds you have mentioned have changed their behaviour because of the Goshawks and therefore are less visible, our Sparrows certainly changed there behaviour once we started having regular visits from a Sprawk, far less time spent at the feeders, diving into cover at the faintest noise/movement but numbers overall don't seem much reduced!
Like you I'm a fan of top predators I personally think the environment overall will benefit, though some species may suffer, such as Kestrels!

The number of smaller birds has is actually very very good. We do very well for smaller birds - they have been decent numbers for the last few years. Not sure if numbers have increased though. Nuthatch numbers this year seem low this year and poor productivity.


Crows and Woodpigeons feed on whinberry not far away from where the nest is. I would actually say the Crow numbers are lower than usual and not many as many successfull nests as usual.

Partially consumed Crows, Magpies, Lapwings, Black Headed Gulls and Common Gulls have been seen by me and some others. I saw the female once unsuccessfully hunt Mallard on a hill side - a Crow interrupted the hunt alerting the Mallards. The Mallards were wary and flew off seconds before the female Goshawk descended. She did chase the Crow and strike it a few times before flying off.

 

[Himalaya]

Maybe the Goshawk effect on Corvids is more important to the Lapwings than the possibility of direct predation by the hawks? Certainly at my local gravel pits Lapwings have been annihilated year on year at the chick stage by Carrion Crows.

John

That's what I think. The Lapwing success is purely because of the Goshawks.

 

[jurek]

From my and others observations in Poland, goshawk is not a threat to ravens. It attacks them, but ravens are too clever to be caught. Goshawks displace buzzards at carrion, but often both species re-use each other old nests.

About prey animals - crows, woodpigeons and domestic / feral pigeons are common prey. If they are common, goshawks are unlikely to be responsible for decline of other species. In my Swiss patch, I strongly suspect one goshawk eliminated a flock of feral pigeons which nested on a hydroelectric dam. I saw predation only once, the pigeons started stupidly circling around so that they actually came close towards the goshawk. Which just grabbed one without effort.

In another place, I saw a female goshawk attacking a roosting cormorant which was larger than herself. It looked rather like one of these improbable animal footages from BBC documentaries. The goshawk grabbed the head / neck area and knocked the cormorant from the tree. The Cormorant started falling towards the water and the Goshawk let go. The cormorant dived and was OK. Another birder informed me about that time, that he saw a goshawk, possibly the same female, killing a cormorant.

 

[silver prince]

lots of video on u tube of goshawk killing full grown osprey chicks on the nest where they overlap from nest cam footage

 

[h8cru]

I observed three nests (at 3 youngs each) this year.
Around 90% of the diet seems to be pidgeons, very rarley carrion crows or jackdaws.
The amount of smaller birds is hard to tell, as the remains seem fewer.
But I could observe them feeding unfeathered nestlings too (could not ID them).

 

[silver prince]

it seems gos hawks take a lot of nestlings ,i have seen ,black stork, osprey,and hawfinch.all had nest cams on ,from utube,