Furnariidae (4 Viewers)

[cajanuma]

Meanwhile the foothill form and the trans-Andean birds are radically different from these S of the Amazon birds and from each other.

The foothill form is undescribed, though, and the proposal mentions this, so I guess that until it is described SACC can't do anything about it.

 

[pbjosh]

The foothill form is undescribed, though, and the proposal mentions this, so I guess that until it is described SACC can't do anything about it.

For the foothill form, I believe you are right, though I guess it could shake out that there is already a described specimen that is a holotype for a subspp that happens to be genetically assignable to that voice group / form.

I was present when a voice vouchered specimen was collected in order to facilitate the description. This was in 2016. 8 years later it's still not described. I know that there are a lot of reasons for delays in papers in ornithology, and I have respect for all the people involved in the descriptions of new species in the neotropics, but it's still a bit maddening in some ways.

How long have the Mantaro birds been sitting undescribed? How long has Bahia Treehunter been known about and it's still not described?

Similarly to WGAC just pooling the collective knowledge of the various regional authorities and trying to make the best decisions they can and going forward, in cases of undescribed species, while it would certainly be looked down upon by the scientific community I almost wonder about some guerilla publications of some species to unstick the works. Contact the people working on the description and responsible for naming the species, ask them what name they're going to use, and just publish with their preferred names with a photo + recording + zoobank registration and give credit to the finders and the people working on describing it and state "We respectfully await the full description coming from XYZ."

 

[Xenospiza]

For the foothill form, I believe you are right, though I guess it could shake out that there is already a described specimen that is a holotype for a subspp that happens to be genetically assignable to that voice group / form.

I was present when a voice vouchered specimen was collected in order to facilitate the description. This was in 2016. 8 years later it's still not described. I know that there are a lot of reasons for delays in papers in ornithology, and I have respect for all the people involved in the descriptions of new species in the neotropics, but it's still a bit maddening in some ways.

How long have the Mantaro birds been sitting undescribed? How long has Bahia Treehunter been known about and it's still not described?

Similarly to WGAC just pooling the collective knowledge of the various regional authorities and trying to make the best decisions they can and going forward, in cases of undescribed species, while it would certainly be looked down upon by the scientific community I almost wonder about some guerilla publications of some species to unstick the works. Contact the people working on the description and responsible for naming the species, ask them what name they're going to use, and just publish with their preferred names with a photo + recording + zoobank registration and give credit to the finders and the people working on describing it and state "We respectfully await the full description coming from XYZ."

I was in Camacan in January 2013 when they'd just been collecting the treehunter. We couldn't find it.

The "Amazonian Spinetail" in SE Amazonia has also been left undescribed for over 10 years... Apparently there are two discoverers who cannot agree on publishing (that was my take on what our guide told us, so I may misinterpret his words).

But "guerilla publishing" could lead to more new birds being kept secret. I guess translation into English of this page will give you a bit of an impression:

Rinjani Scops Owl - Dutch Birding

www.dutchbirding.nl

 

[pbjosh]

I was in Camacan in January 2013 when they'd just been collecting the treehunter. We couldn't find it.

The "Amazonian Spinetail" in SE Amazonia has also been left undescribed for over 10 years... Apparently there are two discoverers who cannot agree on publishing (that was my take on what our guide told us, so I may misinterpret his words).

But "guerilla publishing" could lead to more new birds being kept secret. I guess translation into English of this page will give you a bit of an impression:

Rinjani Scops Owl - Dutch Birding

www.dutchbirding.nl

Birds are already kept secret for fear of competing publishing interests. So you end up in a situation where birders are traveling to remote areas and not even knowing there are birds there to look for. They could be seeing the bird and in many cases adding to the knowledge of new species and its distribution but instead they're in the dark. To me this is ethically suspect and I personally really don't like it. Site info and recordings of the now described Inti Tanager were really hard to come by for a long time and was purposefully suppressed as I understand it.

I hadn't previously seen that discussion about Rinjani Scops but I was aware of the case. I am reading it now and a line really stood out to me - "A species is not a species until described." I fundamentally disagree with this philosophy. The species / taxon / bird exists. It is merely a case of the discoverers recently becoming aware of it and it is their decision whether to share their knowledge or not. This idea that science owns the natural world runs counter to my personal views.

To some degree I think the best thing that has happened on this front in recent time is eBird and other online platforms putting in species placeholders so that people have a clue there is something there.

Even I, the blind squirrel, found a nut and discovered a species and was subsequently involved in the description. I was asked by my co-authors to suppress all information. I declined to and instead freely spread photos, GPS, and recordings. I suggested that if they were worried about guerilla publishers they should publish more quickly. In the end it worked well, people started seeing the bird almost immediately instead of undergoing an arduous trip to a destination that few people would ever return to and walking away without a species that was known to be there.

 

[pbjosh]

Reading the whole saga of Rinjani Scops-Owl to me reinforces that the problem is entirely one of human egos - a bit of understandable desire to claim fame, and understandably wanting to protect your research/effort against someone who might sweep in faster than you but this is a bizarre situation which is already considered by many non-taxonomists / career biologists as a "flaw" in the process. It's a bit arbitrary that it is viewed as mandatory to hide everything and wait until a "sufficient" work is then secretly let into the open. The fact that it is viewed as undesirable to share information runs fairly counter to the idea of science. To me this means the process should change. Yeah it stinks if one researcher/team gets a rug pulled out from under them (again there are other ways to fix this, it is still an arbitrary constraint) but it stinks a lot more for the world to be kept in the dark for years or decades.

 

[Xenospiza]

"A species is not a species until described." I fundamentally disagree with this philosophy.

Yes, which is enforced by list(er)s not mentioning them... so it's nice that ebird makes them available.

 

[thomasdonegan]

SACC Proposal 997 - Treat Deconychura longicauda (Long-tailed Woodcreeper) as three species

It's hard to see what the point is in authoring such a good summary of this situation and then convening a committee of 'experts' to look at splits like this - if the main expert determination involved is to ask whether or not there has been a detailed taxonomic review published in Auk yet with a corroborating molecular study in MPE and, if not, reject it. Here, a PhD thesis may be held out as not good enough; based on the proposal, that seems potentially more important to some committee members than the question whether or not the populations concerned differ very drastically in voice. Better would be to focus on developing rational taxonomies; WGAC may be more interested in that now SACC is aligned to that group, so hope they can surprise me here.

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Kirwan, Guy M., and Andy Elliott (2024) Proposed conservation of reversed precedence in a woodcreeper (Dendrocolaptinae) taxon. Bulletin of the British Ornithologists' Club 144:159-161.
Proposed conservation of reversed precedence in a woodcreeper (Dendrocolaptinae) taxon

Abstract
Xiphorhynchus striatigularis (Richmond, 1900), described based on a single specimen from north-east Mexico, is now universally regarded as a synonym of the Ivory-billed Woodcreeper subspecies X. flavigaster saltuarius Wetmore, 1942. Clearly, the name striatigularis is senior to saltuarius, but its holotype is a highly aberrant individual and would be morphologically far from ideal to serve as the ‘type’ for the taxon currently listed as saltuarius. Also, the hypothesis that striatigularis might be the product of a hybrid pairing cannot yet be rejected, and would, if eventually proven true, render the name unavailable under the ICZN Code (Art. 23.8). Therefore, we believe that the currently favoured reversal of precedence should be conserved. As the conditions of Art. 23.9.1 are clearly not met, we are preparing an application to the ICZN, under Art. 23.9.3, requesting that reversal of precedence be imposed; in the meantime, current usage should be maintained.

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Proposal (1010) to SACC

Treat Cranioleuca marcapatae weskei as a species

 

[Xenospiza]

Proposal (1010) to SACC

Treat Cranioleuca marcapatae weskei as a species

A bit disingenuous of Remsen not to mention that weskei is now also known from the eastern flank of the Andes north to the Satipo road, not just in the Cordillera de Vilcabamba.
It would be interesting what the situation is like between Lucma (pure weskei) and Machu Picchu/Abra Malaga (pure marcapatae), but the interesting area appears completely unvisited (indeed, I have driven by that area as well).

 

[cajanuma]

A bit disingenuous of Remsen not to mention that weskei is now also known from the eastern flank of the Andes north to the Satipo road, not just in the Cordillera de Vilcabamba.

You could email him, they're quite willing to modify proposals in light of something they missed, although I would guess the SACC members with the most expertise on Peruvian birds will comment on this.

I'm not up on the distribution details of these spinetails, does this range extension have implication in terms of potential contact areas, etc?

 

[Xenospiza]

You could email him, they're quite willing to modify proposals in light of something they missed, although I would guess the SACC members with the most expertise on Peruvian birds will comment on this.

I'm not up on the distribution details of these spinetails, does this range extension have implication in terms of potential contact areas, etc?

No, the areas where weskei occurs are all further away, although they are back in the main Andean chain. These areas are separated by the Apurimac river, which seems a much more impressive obstacle than the Urubamba headwaters.

I'd expect that somewhere around there (i.e. southern Sierra de Vilcabamba) the ranges of weskei and marcapatae could meet and I imagine that intergrades could actually occur in the area where it was described!
Maybe the area is indeed too dry and there is no possibility of contact, but the satellite pictures do not give that impression.

 

[raymie]

Even I, the blind squirrel, found a nut and discovered a species and was subsequently involved in the description. I was asked by my co-authors to suppress all information. I declined to and instead freely spread photos, GPS, and recordings. I suggested that if they were worried about guerilla publishers they should publish more quickly. In the end it worked well, people started seeing the bird almost immediately instead of undergoing an arduous trip to a destination that few people would ever return to and walking away without a species that was known to be there.

What species was this, out of curiosity?

 

[Xenospiza]

What species was this, out of curiosity?

Check his thumbnail.

 

[cajanuma]

No, the areas where weskei occurs are all further away, although they are back in the main Andean chain. These areas are separated by the Apurimac river, which seems a much more impressive obstacle than the Urubamba headwaters.

I'd expect that somewhere around there (i.e. southern Sierra de Vilcabamba) the ranges of weskei and marcapatae could meet and I imagine that intergrades could actually occur in the area where it was described!
Maybe the area is indeed too dry and there is no possibility of contact, but the satellite pictures do not give that impression.

There's some fairly extensive discussion on this in the comments to the proposal now, especially in Glenn Seeholtzer's input.

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Proposal (991) to SACC

Recognize the new genus Neophilydor for Philydor erythrocercum and P. fuscipenne (Furnariidae)

PASSED (27 July 2024)