• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

Feeling guilty when birding far from home (1 Viewer)

Get some seawatching hours in: bad weather is a bonus for that! :t:

John
If it didn't need 300km by train, cycling into wind and rain, enduring the same on the beach in the hope to get some early seabirds of the coast of Texel, and after that to come back wet in a wet tent sitting there for the rest of the day, I'd certainly do so :t:

Sorry, I'm just grumpy about the turn of weather in my rare few annual free weeks B :) first hoping for a week of good night's sleep :cat: that will clear the brain o:)
 
This is the right answer. Frankly when people who have children shame me for my flights, I just laugh now. We do not need more billions of people, having children at this situation is the ultimate act of selfishness. I am not going to live my life as a hermit in order to "offset" the fact that most of the planet mistakenly thinks that they are rabbits.

This reminds me of an Extinction Rebellion spokesperson who I saw interviewed on the BBC a few months ago. She claimed to have more of a stake in the future of the planet than most people because she had four children, completely unaware that she was a major part of the problem.
 
Well said. I feel no guilt either. In several weeks we will be flying to Mexico for a birding trip. The plane we board is going to fly, full of tourists headed to the Cancún beaches, whether we get on it or not

I totally get it...on your long haul flight - the plane isn't emitting say, 92Kg per passenger per hours flight...your plane is (based on an average occupancy of 330 passengers) emitting 92.5kg/hour created by nasty "tourists" and 0kg/hour created by 2 "eco-tourists"

Obviously (given long haul flights average occupancy of 333 passengers) tens of thousands of eco-tourists around the world each year are just "absorbed magically" into existing flights...they don't create any extra demand...

Lets be honest, most of our birding creates a significant carbon footprint, from manufacture of our stuff...through driving right up to long haul flights...so none of us are without sin...(though the bikers and walkers amongst us are doing pretty well!) by all means enjoy your world birding...but at least have the good grace to feel a little guilty about it and not try and pretend it brings "environmental benefits"
 
I totally get it...on your long haul flight - the plane isn't emitting say, 92Kg per passenger per hours flight...your plane is (based on an average occupancy of 330 passengers) emitting 92.5kg/hour created by nasty "tourists" and 0kg/hour created by 2 "eco-tourists"

Obviously (given long haul flights average occupancy of 333 passengers) tens of thousands of eco-tourists around the world each year are just "absorbed magically" into existing flights...they don't create any extra demand...

Lets be honest, most of our birding creates a significant carbon footprint, from manufacture of our stuff...through driving right up to long haul flights...so none of us are without sin...(though the bikers and walkers amongst us are doing pretty well!) by all means enjoy your world birding...but at least have the good grace to feel a little guilty about it and not try and pretend it brings "environmental benefits"

I'd be interested to see a comparison, if such exists, of the carbon footprint of those who use their cars almost daily, to work a patch, against those who take a single, foreign trip per year but bird on foot, close to home, without a vehicle?
 
I'd be interested to see a comparison, if such exists, of the carbon footprint of those who use their cars almost daily, to work a patch, against those who take a single, foreign trip per year but bird on foot, close to home, without a vehicle?

A single person in a car is roughly the same carbon footprint per mile as flying in a fully occupied passenger plane on an intercontinental flight, so you can easily work it out. The damage is mainly in the distance covered. Of course when sharing a car with multiple people things get proportionally better. Also, short flights are per mile (much) worse than long flights because takeoff takes so much fuel and short flights spend more time at lower altitude (more friction etc).

Myself, I hardly use my car (I fill up perhaps 1 or 2 times per year - probably ditch the car completely when it stops working, it's now 13 years old), I don't heat my flat in the winter, I eat almost no meat, I have no children, I recycle, buy very little stuff, etc. So pretty low footprint by developed country standards.

But... I take on average 2 intercontinental return flights per year, which more than offsets all the savings made at home! Once at the destination I only use public transport, I walk a lot (insane distances sometimes, with backpack and small tent) and sometimes hitch if no public transport available. So locally my footprint is again very low.

Still... having a plane flying my ass across the ocean just for pleasure makes me a bit of a hypocrite, even though I make a good effort to behave responsible in other areas. But it is still not bugging me enough to give up international birding.
 
A single person in a car is roughly the same carbon footprint per mile as flying in a fully occupied passenger plane on an intercontinental flight, so you can easily work it out. The damage is mainly in the distance covered. Of course when sharing a car with multiple people things get proportionally better. Also, short flights are per mile (much) worse than long flights because takeoff takes so much fuel and short flights spend more time at lower altitude (more friction etc).

Myself, I hardly use my car (I fill up perhaps 1 or 2 times per year - probably ditch the car completely when it stops working, it's now 13 years old), I don't heat my flat in the winter, I eat almost no meat, I have no children, I recycle, buy very little stuff, etc. So pretty low footprint by developed country standards.

Which monastary did you say you live in? ;)
 
I totally get it...on your long haul flight - the plane isn't emitting say, 92Kg per passenger per hours flight...your plane is (based on an average occupancy of 330 passengers) emitting 92.5kg/hour created by nasty "tourists" and 0kg/hour created by 2 "eco-tourists"

Obviously (given long haul flights average occupancy of 333 passengers) tens of thousands of eco-tourists around the world each year are just "absorbed magically" into existing flights...they don't create any extra demand...

Lets be honest, most of our birding creates a significant carbon footprint, from manufacture of our stuff...through driving right up to long haul flights...so none of us are without sin...(though the bikers and walkers amongst us are doing pretty well!) by all means enjoy your world birding...but at least have the good grace to feel a little guilty about it and not try and pretend it brings "environmental benefits"

The carbon cost incident to my being on the plane is negligible compared to what I save regularly via other choices, so it is not logical to feel guilty about it. No, the 331st person added to a flight of 330 is not "magically absorbed" - but the increased CO2 impact is quite small - certainly not another 92kg/hour.

The simplistic 92 kg/person-hour value that gets thrown around is (at least) an order of magnitude too high an estimate of the rise in CO2 emissions due to the addition of a single passenger on a typical jet. (Using the "logic" by which that number is customarily derived, one would conclude that a half-full flight emits half the CO2 that a full one does.) The amount is small enough to be easily offset in a month or less of simple lifestyle decisions. In my case, I don't own a car or drive one, my wife has a hybrid, she works from home, we rarely drive anywhere anyway, I do not own or use any gas devices such as mowers or snowblowers (and I live in Minnesota, for Pete's sake!) and I don't even use public transportation; I walk everywhere around town and average 10 miles a day, so I make up for a gallon of gas from a 40MPG car in less than a week. I will confidently claim to be "greener" than most self-professed greens... and no - no guilt about flying, thanks.)

In a scenario in which my NOT flying would cause the airline to CANCEL the flight, then YES, I think I might feel guilty about getting on it (assuming the cancellation actually results in a net reduction of flights and not a rescheduled one, thereby keeping the total number the same.) But that isn't how it works. Birders make up a small part of any group on most planes and unless we all were on the same aircraft, our deciding to fly or not isn't making that much of a difference. If every birder, assuming we are 1% of the general population, decided to stop flying, it would almost certainly result in no change in the total amount of major flights flown, and far less savings than N*92kg/person-hour, where N is the number of now non-flying birders. The only exception I can see would be those rare flights to "speciality" remote places where few others would go: perhaps the short puddle jumps to some of the Aleutian Islands, for example. But routes to Miami? To Mazatlan? To Rio? Sorry, not seeing it. Just not enough of us could stay home to dent the demand. I don't see airlines cancel flights because 1 or 2% of the seats didn't sell. They seem to have found plenty of other ways to recoup those costs.

All that being said, I despise being on planes and detest airports with a passion. I look forward to my last visit to any of them. And I would be happy to take alternate transportation if it existed. Any ideas on how else I can get from Minnesota to Uganda?
 
All that being said, I despise being on planes and detest airports with a passion. I look forward to my last visit to any of them. And I would be happy to take alternate transportation if it existed. Any ideas on how else I can get from Minnesota to Uganda?

I met a Dutch couple once on a tandem bicycle, this was in Sumatra and they had cycled, all the way from Europe!
 
Last edited:
I have walked from Mexico to Canada, birding all the way. It can be done. :king:
But of course I needed to fly across the ocean first :C
 
I have walked from Mexico to Canada, birding all the way. It can be done. :king:
But of course I needed to fly across the ocean first :C

A weak excuse, all you have to do, is walk across Russia, a mere 5600 miles and 11 time zones, then a short ferry across the Bering Straight in to Alaska and down from there, simples B :)
 
A weak excuse, all you have to do, is walk across Russia, a mere 5600 miles and 11 time zones, then a short ferry across the Bering Straight in to Alaska and down from there, simples B :)

Overly dramatic, as usual Andy! It's a way shorter walk in the winter straight over the north polar ice. Just don't forget to pack enough batteries for your headlamp, easy.
 
No, I think if you choose to enter their habitat (what's left of it) you have to just take your chances with an encounter.

John

I know this is a joke sub-thread but I feel like this is interesting to explain. For example on Svalbard, you are legally required to have a gun anywhere outside of Longyear - and it is really for the sake of the bears, because by not fighting back, you would quickly teach them that humans are easily accessible food, which would lead to big problems for the bears.
 
Sorry to go against the flow, but I really enjoy travelling. The only thing stopping me at the moment is Covid-19. As a new retiree, I want to experience all that the world, particularly her birds, has to offer. I know that many people are taking a more carbon friendly approach, but I think it won’t really become the norm, until necessity kicks in ie when oil and gas run out.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top