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European Blue Butterflies for ID (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter balkantrek
- Start date
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
Hi, Balkantrek!
I agree with you that he first two pics can be Mazarine Blue, but cannot be 100% sure without the underside. The third pic and the last two can be Silver-studded Blue most likely, yes.
I will study them carefully and discuss after the weekend. I am leaving now for a couple of days of butterflying o
These quizes of yours are awesome! I am learning a lot trying to ID Blues only by the upperside! :t:
I agree with you that he first two pics can be Mazarine Blue, but cannot be 100% sure without the underside. The third pic and the last two can be Silver-studded Blue most likely, yes.
I will study them carefully and discuss after the weekend. I am leaving now for a couple of days of butterflying o
These quizes of yours are awesome! I am learning a lot trying to ID Blues only by the upperside! :t:
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
Hi, all!
I have given a serious thought to all the last Blues and I have reached the following conclusions:
pic 3 that I said I didn't know what it was: the best candidate to me is Mazarine blue. The upperside color is adecuate (blue with a violet hue, not bright turquose blue) and it has a broad dark band by the white edges. I didn't remember the dark band on Mazarine (I trust too much the underside and never paid serious attention to the upperwing). Of course, without the underside I cannot be 100% sure as the blue upperside can be deceiving.
Of the last 5 pics:
1 & 2: I am starting to think they are simply Common Blue. Sorry. White edges, blue-violet upperwing with no trace of dark band. At least, that is the most likely.
3, 4 & 5: Plebejus of some kind, Silver-studded most likely. Dark blue upperwing with very broad dark band and broad white edges. It is shouting 'I am a Plebejus!' Now, if they are different species and considering the unusual species you have in Eastern Europe (that I confess I don't know very well) I don't dare to assure it. Must study a bit to reach a conclussion on that.
Hope this help.
I have given a serious thought to all the last Blues and I have reached the following conclusions:
pic 3 that I said I didn't know what it was: the best candidate to me is Mazarine blue. The upperside color is adecuate (blue with a violet hue, not bright turquose blue) and it has a broad dark band by the white edges. I didn't remember the dark band on Mazarine (I trust too much the underside and never paid serious attention to the upperwing). Of course, without the underside I cannot be 100% sure as the blue upperside can be deceiving.
Of the last 5 pics:
1 & 2: I am starting to think they are simply Common Blue. Sorry. White edges, blue-violet upperwing with no trace of dark band. At least, that is the most likely.
3, 4 & 5: Plebejus of some kind, Silver-studded most likely. Dark blue upperwing with very broad dark band and broad white edges. It is shouting 'I am a Plebejus!' Now, if they are different species and considering the unusual species you have in Eastern Europe (that I confess I don't know very well) I don't dare to assure it. Must study a bit to reach a conclussion on that.
Hope this help.
madamcoolpix
a.k.a. Madam Butterfly
I'd agree with Gavia, in this last couple of sets the two first look like Common Blue at first sight and the others are very similar to the Silver-studded Blues I use to see around here in summer time. But like her, I can't be 100% sure.
I have a mystery Blue for ID, it's from a couple of years ago and I have to look for the pics among the "chaos" of my hard disk! As soon as I have them ready I'll show you to hear your opinions!
Cheers!
I have a mystery Blue for ID, it's from a couple of years ago and I have to look for the pics among the "chaos" of my hard disk!
As soon as I have them ready I'll show you to hear your opinions!Cheers!
balkantrek
Well-known member
Thanks for your comments on the photos. Looking forward to seeing your own mystery blue Marian!
madamcoolpix
a.k.a. Madam Butterfly
Well, here I am finally with my mystery Blue Butterfly!!! o Sorry, I've been very busy and couldn't check even what's going on here with the ID problems! Saw that a thread for erebias was started, WOW!!! I'll have a look there as soon as I can!
This guy has me totally puzzled!!! |8.| White fringes, no cell spot, but very bright Blue... Maybe I'm too tired to think and it's obvious but I just can't tell what it is!
Taken in early August in the hot plains of NC Spain, in a marvelous area for Butterflies called Páramo de Masa, in Burgos Province.
Any ideas?
Sorry, I've been very busy and couldn't check even what's going on here with the ID problems! Saw that a thread for erebias was started, WOW!!! I'll have a look there as soon as I can!This guy has me totally puzzled!!! |8.| White fringes, no cell spot, but very bright Blue... Maybe I'm too tired to think and it's obvious but I just can't tell what it is!
Taken in early August in the hot plains of NC Spain, in a marvelous area for Butterflies called Páramo de Masa, in Burgos Province.
Any ideas?
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Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
I think it is a Escher's Blue. A bit extrange colour on the upperwing. But the underwing pattern is 90% correct for Escher's and more importantly it has the diagnostic marks that make the upper hindwing look half checkered. Hope you don't mind, I marked them in your own photo.
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balkantrek
Well-known member
Time for a few more blue butterflies, but don't get excited...these are from my 'battered blues' collection. Don't know why, but the majority of blues I photograph seem to have had very tough lives and are badly pecked, battered and faded.
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Davebutterflyman
Well-known member
I agree with you Gavia on Agrodiaetus escheri and the underwing pattern is virtually there as far as i can see apart from the 8th spot in the post discal area at the base of the hindwing plus as Gavia has well highlighted the posterior chequering.Just to throw something else into the mixer i was baffled by the Eschers blue i saw in Tuscany some years ago and came to the conclusion that it could only have been A.escheri splendens but the upper forewings that are(on a male at least) supposed to be paler blue?....but they were not!? does the nominate A.escheri cross over range with A.escheri splendens?because i am still unsure as to exactly what race it was.No photos unfortunately.
Dave.
Dave.
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
Thanks for your input in this, Dave. For what you tell us here, it seems the upperside colour of some Escher's can be a bit puzzling. Marian's pic was taken in Spain I believe and I have never seen an Escher's with such a colour here in Spain. But it cannot be anything else. Perhaps the specimen you saw in Tuscany was also a little aberrant. It would be an enterely different matter if you see several specimens and all have the same colour. It might even be a local variation. Just guessing.
madamcoolpix
a.k.a. Madam Butterfly
Thank you very much, Gavia and Dave, for your help with my ID, and sorry to be so late, my "real life" is not leaving me much time to be in these fastinating threads!!! o I must confess the Blue colour made me rule out the Escher's Blue from the beginning... with Blue Butterflies you can't throw a clue to the bin!!!
Hope to have the time to look at your Blues this afternoon, Balkantrek... but those 4 are going to be a real challenge! :-O
I must confess the Blue colour made me rule out the Escher's Blue from the beginning... with Blue Butterflies you can't throw a clue to the bin!!! Hope to have the time to look at your Blues this afternoon, Balkantrek... but those 4 are going to be a real challenge! :-O
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
Balkantrek, I couldn't help but smile when I checked the pics of the poor bugs in your post o That is going to be tough but I am going to give it a try.
1. Don't ask me why but I think it is a Long-tailed Blue. It just looks too similar to the hundreds of battered tiny Blues with a violet hue in the upperside that ended being Long-tailed Blues that I have seen in my life. It is certainly a possibility. But I wouldn't be surprised if others don't agree.
2. I think it is a female Brown Argus. The orange lunules are well marked all along the wings border. I think I see a hint of checkered fringes too. Plus that little black dot in the middle of the upper frontwings points out to Brown Argus too. Let's see what the others think.
3. In the little remainings of the poor bug I think I can see an Escher's Blue. Sure it is a Polyommatus, no cell spot, the orange lunules go all along the underside of the hindwing (luckily the last one was still there to see) and the orange lunules are bordered with black in the outside border. If the pic was taken in the western area of Bulgaria, it should be an Escher's.
4. It is a Polyommatus and no matter how faded it is, with that lovely cell spot, only can be our beloved and dreaded Common Blue :-O
That is going to be tough but I am going to give it a try.1. Don't ask me why but I think it is a Long-tailed Blue. It just looks too similar to the hundreds of battered tiny Blues with a violet hue in the upperside that ended being Long-tailed Blues that I have seen in my life. It is certainly a possibility. But I wouldn't be surprised if others don't agree.
2. I think it is a female Brown Argus. The orange lunules are well marked all along the wings border. I think I see a hint of checkered fringes too. Plus that little black dot in the middle of the upper frontwings points out to Brown Argus too. Let's see what the others think.
3. In the little remainings of the poor bug I think I can see an Escher's Blue. Sure it is a Polyommatus, no cell spot, the orange lunules go all along the underside of the hindwing (luckily the last one was still there to see) and the orange lunules are bordered with black in the outside border. If the pic was taken in the western area of Bulgaria, it should be an Escher's.
4. It is a Polyommatus and no matter how faded it is, with that lovely cell spot, only can be our beloved and dreaded Common Blue :-O
Davebutterflyman
Well-known member
We certainly like a challenge on here!!...this is great actually as you really have to dig deep to get the old brain matter going!.Battered blues...now thats a question,the amount of times i'm sure we have all thought "thats too far gone for me to bother with,lets go and look for a nice easy hungarian glider or spanish festoon" but this is the true essence of butterfly watching and the more battered the better....well,maybe not that battered!!.Anyway,i digress...onto these four,and thanks for posting those Balkantrek.
Image 1. I'm going to get back to this one later on today but Gavia's attempt looks pretty good.
Image 2. I'll go with Gavia's excellent summary on this and agree Brown argus.If you zoom in you can just about see the chequered fringes and the two black forewing dots on and around the second anterior forewing vein also look ok.Plus the orange lunules reach beyond the sub apex into the apex on the upper forewing whereas on female common blue they usually only reach to the fifth vein and not beyond.
Image 3. I think Gavia again is right with this one with the orange lunules bordered by black on both sides and are indented in the submargin and go all the way on the under forewing and the last lunule close to the apex is just visible.
Image 4. Again i agree with Gavia and P.icarus is the culprit! No,i'm only joking as i have a lot of fond memories with this species as it was the first blue butterfly i ever saw and it put me on the road to being totally mad about butterflies and i never tire of seeing them.
Dave.
Image 1. I'm going to get back to this one later on today but Gavia's attempt looks pretty good.
Image 2. I'll go with Gavia's excellent summary on this and agree Brown argus.If you zoom in you can just about see the chequered fringes and the two black forewing dots on and around the second anterior forewing vein also look ok.Plus the orange lunules reach beyond the sub apex into the apex on the upper forewing whereas on female common blue they usually only reach to the fifth vein and not beyond.
Image 3. I think Gavia again is right with this one with the orange lunules bordered by black on both sides and are indented in the submargin and go all the way on the under forewing and the last lunule close to the apex is just visible.
Image 4. Again i agree with Gavia and P.icarus is the culprit! No,i'm only joking as i have a lot of fond memories with this species as it was the first blue butterfly i ever saw and it put me on the road to being totally mad about butterflies and i never tire of seeing them.
Dave.
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Davebutterflyman
Well-known member
Back to image 1 and along with the violet hue especially around the basal area there is a suggestion of what looks like the black spot on the anal angle of the hindwing?(the black has gone and a feint white border is just visible) but it's hard to gauge exactly where the fourth and fifth veins are and i might be seeing things? so i'm going to stick my neck out and also say L.boeticus.
Dave.
Dave.
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
Dave, now that you mention it, I see a hint of the black spot too. Which makes me stick to Long-tailed Blue (Lampides boeticus) :t:
balkantrek
Well-known member
Often I see spots in front of my eyes, but this time I hadn't noticed any. Thanks for your input on this image, I really thought there was little or no chance of getting close to an identification of photo 1.
Your suggestions of photo3 being Escher's Blue is interesting. My only doubts about this are connected with the distribution and status of this species in Bulgaria. The photo was taken in northern Bulgaria at an altitude of about 300m. There is absolutely no record of the species occuring in this part of Bulgaria (although that of course doesn't rule it out!). On his website 'The Butterlies of Bulgaria', Kolev comments on the distribution as: 'Very local: the karst regions of Pirin and W Rhodopi, single records from Rila and Slivenska Stara Planina. Between 500 and 1700 m a.s.l.'
http://www.butterfliesofbulgaria.com/polesc.html
Would be nice if we have located a new region for the species!
Your suggestions of photo3 being Escher's Blue is interesting. My only doubts about this are connected with the distribution and status of this species in Bulgaria. The photo was taken in northern Bulgaria at an altitude of about 300m. There is absolutely no record of the species occuring in this part of Bulgaria (although that of course doesn't rule it out!). On his website 'The Butterlies of Bulgaria', Kolev comments on the distribution as: 'Very local: the karst regions of Pirin and W Rhodopi, single records from Rila and Slivenska Stara Planina. Between 500 and 1700 m a.s.l.'
http://www.butterfliesofbulgaria.com/polesc.html
Would be nice if we have located a new region for the species!
balkantrek
Well-known member
Davebutterflyman
Well-known member
Hi Balkantrek.
It is very interesting to see the distribution of Eschers in Bulgaria and the race A.escheri dalmaticus is extremely sporadic from the likes of the Pirin mountains and it's a pity we don't have a fresh specimen to muse over,and although i have never seen dalmaticus,i believe that the upperwing is far brighter and vivid than the nominate A.escheri.
It really would be something if a new region had been discovered.
Dave.
It is very interesting to see the distribution of Eschers in Bulgaria and the race A.escheri dalmaticus is extremely sporadic from the likes of the Pirin mountains and it's a pity we don't have a fresh specimen to muse over,and although i have never seen dalmaticus,i believe that the upperwing is far brighter and vivid than the nominate A.escheri.
It really would be something if a new region had been discovered.
Dave.
Gavia_immer
Loony the Loon
:eek!: :eek!: Balkantrek, this is awesome! A new area for Escher's Blue in Bulgaria? Looks too good to be true!
The thing is, if that butterfly isn't an Escher's Blue, what else can it be? All the other possibilities are ruled out.
About the new Blue... well, that is really tricky. The more I look at it, the more I think it is a Common Blue so faded that has lost its cell spot. Look at the longish mark in the discal area of the forewing, it is almost gone. I wouldn't be surprised if the cell spot has been simply wiped out.
I am starting to regret very seriously that I have binned all my faded blues pics two years ago in order to save space in my hard-disk :-C Silly me, I thought I would never be able to identify them :C
The thing is, if that butterfly isn't an Escher's Blue, what else can it be? All the other possibilities are ruled out.
About the new Blue... well, that is really tricky. The more I look at it, the more I think it is a Common Blue so faded that has lost its cell spot. Look at the longish mark in the discal area of the forewing, it is almost gone. I wouldn't be surprised if the cell spot has been simply wiped out.
I am starting to regret very seriously that I have binned all my faded blues pics two years ago in order to save space in my hard-disk :-C Silly me, I thought I would never be able to identify them :C
Cristian Mihai
Cristian Mihai
Common Blue - a pair:
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/260710/ppuser/54311
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/260710/ppuser/54311
