Deer should be killed every year? (1 Viewer)

[Amarillo]

What I don't understand about this suddenly appearing in the media is that it makes no mention of how many are already culled. I think most people with any understanding of conservation realise that deer need fairly heavy culling in the UK and I was under the impression they already were. Anyone know what current culling levels are?

I'm all for a properly regulated and sustainable deer (and boar) hunting industry, which should provide excellent highly ethical meat.

 

[mudman]

Deer 'management' or culling has gone on in different ways for many years. Don't know how many are killed every year but I think depending on species, a cull of 30-50% is required annually to maintain a stable population, this number includes those that die in RTA's and other forms of accident, weather related losses etc. Some species require a higher cull rate, for instance Muntjac, which pop out a single fawn every 7 months, and due to their habit of staying in dense cover are difficult to cull.

Deer management is basically shooting deer, performed by 'stalkers' with, for want of a better description, accurate high powered rifles. If not kept for his/her own consumption the venison is then put into the general food chain, ie sold to a game dealer who processes and then sells on wards to a retailer.

 

[locustella]

you've missed the point on that one, they haven't caused the deforestation, we did, they are a large contributing factor to the complete absence

Yes, but it makes such impression, that deer are responisble for bad situation. But the truth is, that the same governments don't want to expand area of forests and probably the same people want to kill deer. So deer are important, but don't forget also the root cause of everythinhg.

 

[jurek]

At least on Germany, Poland, Scandinavia, deer cull is driven by forestry business. Forestry wants lowest deer population possible, not to damage tree plantations. Deer hunting brings much less money. Prices of venison are very low and much lower than the cost of hunting, which is expensive hobby of hunters.

I also think that forests without deer and staying young and bushy forever are not a natural situation to begin with.

 

[PhilW]

Doesn't just apply to deer....

Yes it does. There was a classic study done on White-tailed Deer in America.

Take for example, a classic study conducted on the Rob and Bessie Welder Wildlife Refuge in southern Texas. In this study, a 966-acre pasture was surrounded with a predator-proof fence and all predators inside the fence removed. The deer herd inside the fence was monitored and compared to the deer outside the fence that were still exposed to predation. Initially, the deer numbers inside the fence greatly expanded, primarily from increased fawn survival. However, after a couple of years of this elevated population, forage availability and health of the deer began to decline. Parasite loads increased, does began conceiving later and overall reproductive performance decreased. Eventually, the population declined to levels comparable to outside the exclosure, but in a less healthy condition. Not at all a situation we would like to see in our hunting grounds.

 

[Robert Wallace]

Is Venison not created by Farmed deer?

Regards
kathy
x

Farmed deer only eaten by peasants like me. Posh people shoot their own wild deer. Not that I'm jealous, but I do love venison.

 

[Sangahyando]

At least on Germany, Poland, Scandinavia, deer cull is driven by forestry business. Forestry wants lowest deer population possible, not to damage tree plantations. Deer hunting brings much less money. Prices of venison are very low and much lower than the cost of hunting, which is expensive hobby of hunters.

I also think that forests without deer and staying young and bushy forever are not a natural situation to begin with.

At least in Germany, we actually have something of a deer over-population as well. Maybe that's changing as wolves are beginning to establish themselves, but I know for a fact that hunters over here are actually struggling to manage the large population of wild boar as well as various kinds of deer. Of course, that's partly their fault, because some of them apparently feed game animals in winter.

 

[locustella]

The Scottish Gamekeepers Association opposes this kill:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/09/deer-cull-would-destroy-livelihoods
Deer cull would threaten thousands of jobs, say furious gamekeepers

Do they more stalk or hunt animals ? You can get the impression looking at their webpage, that they like nature. And it is much better preserved than in south, in England. Actually this is unusual situation - too large number of game. I personally would like to see deer in the forest much more frequently. But maybe really it is kept for tourist and even hunting industry, perhaps treating the country as safari park ?

Why in some countries hunters and foresters think alike, actually in many cases foresters are hunters, manage forest and game treating it actually like a pest, in other countries like UK at least sometimes they are separated and have conflicting objectives ?

EDIT:
What is difference between gamekeepers, hunters and foresters in the UK ? Are they three separated groups ?

 

[chowchilla]

so how many children do you have, i personally have none and never will do, because this planet has too many humans on it. is it not our callous disregard for the human race which is the problem, it is people who hold your mind set callous disregard for every other species on the planet. if you think i'm wrong then explain the cause of the current rate of extinction. the reason that you think that way is probably understandable, but it still doesn't make it right

Australia has 22 million people in an area about the size of Europe and despite a whacking great desert in the middle we still have a hell of a lot of space to live in. Aussies do this more wastefully than almost anyone else on the planet. Most of our ecosystems are absolutely buggered with mass extinction of a large range of our fauna and flora a real possibility. We may well have more endangered species of mammal than any other country. Clearly mere population is not the cause here.

Taiwan, where I visited last year has about 22 million people in an area about the size of Tasmania. Yet at least 60% of the country is forest and the vast majority of endemics are doing just fine. Clearly a huge and very dense population is not having a significant impact there.

So a simplistic 'large population of people' = 'more extinctions' simply doesn't add up. Whenever I read about endangered species anywhere in the world in fact, this is hardly ever the main cause and it frequently isn't a factor at all.

There may well be far too many people on the planet for environmental resources per se and no doubt many species are affected to some degree as a result but that isn't what you were commenting on and the issues are far more complex than that. Your rather disturbing vision of a 'solution' just leaves me cold...

 

[Trystan]

Nonetheless, genocide is not an answer. The atmosphere of callous disregard for human life that is all too often to be found among comment(er)s on such topics is frankly disturbing, especially to outsiders. Quite apart from the hypocrisy that comes with it, because very few of those calling for the extermination of the human race are actually eager to lead with their own example.

I'd like to run with this simply because I am a massive advocate of managing the human population, it is the only way we will have a chance in the long term but at the same time everything you write here is correct.

I notice that generally speaking when these cull threads start it is people from the UK who advocate (if they really mean it and are not just making the point that we are a worse problem than deer for example) culling.

I think this may stem from living on a truly overcrowded little island where even people who are oblivious to the environmental problems feel the pressure of other symptoms of overcrowding, i.e. road congestion, crowded classrooms - hence a failing education system, hence an increase in unemployment and crime. Pretty much every problem we have takes us back to the same source.

Personally speaking I have in the past bought an ex-council house being all we could afford when we first got on the property ladder. The experience was horrendous. We were persecuted because both me and my girlfriend had jobs. We were burgled during the day while out at work, had car windows put through. People opened the gate to the garden to let dogs $#!+. Anyone who has experienced these kind of people can be sympathised with when they call for a cull.

Further to this my current girlfriend (Not the one who had to live through the above experience) is a social worker. Day in day out she tries to help children in families who are not fit to have children. When the children are removed for their own safety, it is often to an unstable environment where the odds are against them bettering themselves. The Parents are then free to simply have another child and frequently do. We are mass producing the worst kind of people and there is nothing to be done about it with the current laws and a prevailing sense of it being wrong to take more drastic action.

Is this unique to the UK? I'd be interested to hear from other BF members. The solution here should have been in place 3 generations ago. Prevention by law and if necessary, sterilisation of those shown unfit to look after children. We need a license to have a child and a 2 child per family policy in the UK to start fixing our problems and we need a two child per family policy on a global scale to start repairing the planet.

We are part of nature just like deer so if you can see that we need to manage our deer population, do not be so arrogant as to think this does not apply to us too.

 

[chowchilla]

I'd like to run with this simply because I am a massive advocate of managing the human population, it is the only way we will have a chance in the long term but at the same time everything you write here is correct.

I notice that generally speaking when these cull threads start it is people from the UK who advocate (if they really mean it and are not just making the point that we are a worse problem than deer for example) culling.

I think this may stem from living on a truly overcrowded little island where even people who are oblivious to the environmental problems feel the pressure of other symptoms of overcrowding, i.e. road congestion, crowded classrooms - hence a failing education system, hence an increase in unemployment and crime. Pretty much every problem we have takes us back to the same source.

Personally speaking I have in the past bought an ex-council house being all we could afford when we first got on the property ladder. The experience was horrendous. We were persecuted because both me and my girlfriend had jobs. We were burgled during the day while out at work, had car windows put through. People opened the gate to the garden to let dogs $#!+. Anyone who has experienced these kind of people can be sympathised with when they call for a cull.

Further to this my current girlfriend (Not the one who had to live through the above experience) is a social worker. Day in day out she tries to help children in families who are not fit to have children. When the children are removed for their own safety, it is often to an unstable environment where the odds are against them bettering themselves. The Parents are then free to simply have another child and frequently do. We are mass producing the worst kind of people and there is nothing to be done about it with the current laws and a prevailing sense of it being wrong to take more drastic action.

Is this unique to the UK? I'd be interested to hear from other BF members. The solution here should have been in place 3 generations ago. Prevention by law and if necessary, sterilisation of those shown unfit to look after children. We need a license to have a child and a 2 child per family policy in the UK to start fixing our problems and we need a two child per family policy on a global scale to start repairing the planet.

We are part of nature just like deer so if you can see that we need to manage our deer population, do not be so arrogant as to think this does not apply to us too.

You are equating population density with social issues which in the case of the UK is clearly nonsense. All of the examples you have given are just as prevalent here in Australia and in some cases worse. The murder rate here is higher than the UK; the suicide rate is higher; the drug problem is worse; I'd wager that alcohol is a bigger problem too; corruption is rife; the burglary rate is worse; domestic violence is probably worse, it's certainly more visible; I have had street brawls right outside my apartment on several occasions and I live in one of Cairns' better suburbs. Someone was murdered a few streets away only the other day.

People in the UK are perceived and I think accurately as more pessimistic about life than many other countries. They are more inclined I believe to argue and try and put the wind up others as well. Just check all the countless 'disagreements' on this forum and see which nationality is nearly always at the centre. It is not uncommon for people there to think that the country is in some sort of terminal decline and often the issues you describe are seen as peculiar to or unique to the UK; an attitude I have never understood because it was a prevalent argument even when the UK economy was booming. IMHO you have to step outside of the UK for a while to regain any sense of perspective.

Now I am just as guilty as others for going off topic but considering how much the debate increasingly darkens in the UK, it is difficult to keep quiet.

 

[Upland Birder]

I believe that humans have no right to kill Fox, Badger or Deer (non humans) or any other non human.

Dean:t:

 

[locustella]

What is difference between gamekeepers, hunters and foresters in the UK ? Are they three separated groups ?
The game rarely can be damaging when natural selection factors like predators are absent, but maybe we deel here with very healthy and unusual in some countries interests conflict between gamekeepers, hunters and forestry and maybe someone else.
The nature is much better preserved in Scotland than in England. Why don't find problems there, expand area of forests ? Deer are not responsible for basic problem -low area and percentage of old trees and probably overal structure.
Basically there are two hunting systems
1) based on licences - everyone can buy licence, weapon and go to hunt at any location (tied to civil liberties USA, maybe UK ?)
2) based on "hunting teritories" - each group of hunters takes care about their area (Germany)
but this situation perhaps is about something else, more sophisticated.

 

[Wildmoreway]

Back in 1900 the estimated human population was 1,700,000,000 I believe that currently it is estimated to be about 6,000,000,000 and it is thought that it could be in excess of 10,000,000,000 by 2050 only around about 25% of the earth's human population are living above the poverty line. No matter what other arguments there are, there are simply far too many humans. In truth we are the vermin.

 

[Trystan]

You are equating population density with social issues which in the case of the UK is clearly nonsense. All of the examples you have given are just as prevalent here in Australia and in some cases worse. The murder rate here is higher than the UK; the suicide rate is higher; the drug problem is worse; I'd wager that alcohol is a bigger problem too; corruption is rife; the burglary rate is worse; domestic violence is probably worse, it's certainly more visible; I have had street brawls right outside my apartment on several occasions and I live in one of Cairns' better suburbs. Someone was murdered a few streets away only the other day.

People in the UK are perceived and I think accurately as more pessimistic about life than many other countries. They are more inclined I believe to argue and try and put the wind up others as well. Just check all the countless 'disagreements' on this forum and see which nationality is nearly always at the centre. It is not uncommon for people there to think that the country is in some sort of terminal decline and often the issues you describe are seen as peculiar to or unique to the UK; an attitude I have never understood because it was a prevalent argument even when the UK economy was booming. IMHO you have to step outside of the UK for a while to regain any sense of perspective.

Now I am just as guilty as others for going off topic but considering how much the debate increasingly darkens in the UK, it is difficult to keep quiet.

Why when people start by saying something is clearly nonsense do they fail to show why.

I can't say what the cause of the social problems in Australia is as I have not been and know little about it, but I would speculate that your population density is pretty high discounting the huge central area where few people live and that just like the UK, the people causing the social problems I mentioned breed unchecked while the rest of society carries the cross on their behalf?

 

[locustella]

estimated human population was

We are like growing population of protozoans in a tube just before nutrient depletion and final disaster.
http://www2.nau.edu/~gaud/bio326/class/ecosyst/img00045.gif
http://www2.nau.edu/~gaud/bio326/class/ecosyst/micrecol.htm

 

[John o'Sullivan]

The trick is not to cull deer but harvest them.

An organic source of primary protein.

Instead of eating poor quality beef/horse eat venison (create a market and sell at a premium).

Use humans as the predator at the top of the food chain.

 

[Wildmoreway]

Why when people start by saying something is clearly nonsense do they fail to show why.

I can't say what the cause of the social problems in Australia is as I have not been and know little about it, but I would speculate that your population density is pretty high discounting the huge central area where few people live and that just like the UK, the people causing the social problems I mentioned breed unchecked while the rest of society carries the cross on their behalf?

Estimated population for Cairns in 2012 was 150,000 similar size perhaps to Huddersfield, Warrington, Exeter or Torbay (UK) and it just seems to a similar level of social problems that similar sized places have throughout the english speaking world. Looking at a picture Cairns the effective housing density is probably similar to those other places .. especially Exeter and Torbay.

 

[Wildmoreway]

The trick is not to cull deer but harvest them.

An organic source of primary protein.

Instead of eating poor quality beef/horse eat venison (create a market and sell at a premium).

Use humans as the predator at the top of the food chain.

Could we not "harvest" and sell the meat of gamekeepers and others who are caught poisoning raptors? This could be marketed as british "bushmeat".

 

[Bob Philpott]

What is difference between gamekeepers, hunters and foresters in the UK ? Are they three separated groups ?
The game rarely can be damaging when natural selection factors like predators are absent, but maybe we deel here with very healthy and unusual in some countries interests conflict between gamekeepers, hunters and forestry and maybe someone else.
The nature is much better preserved in Scotland than in England. Why don't find problems there, expand area of forests ? Deer are not responsible for basic problem -low area and percentage of old trees and probably overal structure.
Basically there are two hunting systems
1) based on licences - everyone can buy licence, weapon and go to hunt at any location (tied to civil liberties USA, maybe UK ?)
2) based on "hunting teritories" - each group of hunters takes care about their area (Germany)
but this situation perhaps is about something else, more sophisticated.

Locustella. I think the UK is different to any of the options you describe.

Foresters clearly look after woodlands and as part of that will need to reduce damage by, amongst other things, keeping the deer population to a non damaging level (there being no predators left). The lack of predators and introduction of some deer species over many years has caused a problem of over browsing.

Gamekeepers work for an estate owner and on a deer estate would wish to keep a deer population at a level consistent with retaining an income from shooting. Hunters are those who pay for the right to shoot that stock which is maintained by gamekeepers.

In the UK there is a 3rd system of hunting. Game Licences are bought at a Post office but no-one can buy any weapons without proving a need to acquire them applying for a licence and showing suitability as a licence holder.

Hunting is primarily a sport you buy access to so the hunting estate looks after its 'hunting territory' and the hunter / shooter pays to take part in a shooting day or to have a right to rough shooting for rabbits etc.

Primarily the UK operates on a landowner based business model. That description is from a non shooting UK resident. I think that is a reasonable description but others may have a different view.

I do agree with John Sullivan that the answer is to make deer a standard food item rather than seeing this as a cull.