Bins for naturewatching and astronomy ? (1 Viewer)

[cpper]

Hello
I like stargazing and animal watching so I decided to buy a pair of binoculars for both of my hobbies.
I know that the astronomy bins are different of the nature ones.
I studied a lot about bird watching/nature/astronomy bins,and my conclusion is that I need bright ,porro bins with:

* ~7mm exit pupil,meaning:
* 8x-10x power (fixed zoom),
* 56mm-70mm front lens size(for low light conditions);
* BAK-4 prisms;
* Multicoated or fullymulticoated lens;
* Wide FOV.

Am I right ?
I don't need waterproof, and the size and weight don't matter(I'm used to big,heavy lens). I found the Nikon Action VII 10x50 but I think they are to dim for astronomy,altough they have a large FOV...
My budget is 150$/118 euro, I know that good bins are more expensive,but I can't afford them.
Can someone give me an advice ?

And one more thing,is it such a big difference between 8x and 10x magnification ? And how is the magnification calculated ? By dividing the distance to an object by 8 times , for example , or by dividing the distance 8 times by 2 ?

Thanks in advance

 

[Lyrebird79]

People say you need a 7mm exit pupil for astronomy, but for me the most important thing is sharpness. You must consider factors such as astigmatism and coma when purchasing bins for astronomy. My 10x42 Swaro bins are bright enough to allow me to see many more stars than my own eyes. I can also see four moons of Jupiter as perfect pin points.

 

[Mark9473]

I would advise against a 7 mm exit pupil, unless you live in the darkest spot of your continent and your hobby is looking at dust clouds in the Milky Way. And you have to be younger than 40.

10x50 are definitely not too dim, in fact they are an often recommended size for astronomy. They'll do well for daytime viewing too. But a typical 10x50 porro will not have a close enough focus if you want to sit in your garden and watch butterflies.

 

[Binastro]

regarding astronomy and nature binoculars, the requirements are a little different.

I agree that you are unlikely to need a 7 mm exit pupil more likely 5 to 6 mm.

It also depends where you live as in Europe binoculars are generally more expensive than in the USA.

A 10 x 56 roof prism binocular might be suitable although the ones with ED glass are about twice your price limit. But non-ED glass versions are available near to your price.

I actually prefer the 12 x 56, mine is a barr and Stroud version.

The low-priced 15 x 70 skywatchers, revelation or similar only cost £60 or so in the UK. But they are very fragile and have to be treated with kid gloves as they go out of collimation easily.
But these are too large for nature study although there are quite easy to use if you have used heavy binoculars before.

I agree a 10 x 50 either porro or roof prism would be the normal choice for astronomy and nature study and they certainly have enough light grasp if you're viewing from a dark place.

But try a 10 x 56 or 12 x 56 to see if it is suitable.
Sometimes with roof prisms this size the IPD or distance between your eyes must be about 59 mm or more as you cannot close them enough for smaller IPD's as the barrels are too wide.
They are not exactly straight through viewing as some people think.
Usually the light path diverts about 5 mm in each barrel. If they didn't the IPD necessary would probably be at least 63 mm may be more.

Some cheaper 56 mm and 63 mm roof prisms and also others have in fact smaller apertures than stated so one should buy a good make and make sure they're not undersized.

Another possibility is a 12 x 60 or 10 x 60 porro prism.

If you try them out in a shop it should really be after sunset as in the day your eyes don't open wide enough.

 

[jaymoynihan]

Avoid zoom binoculars
the max exit pupil shrinks with age.
10x50 is pretty much the astronomy hand held standard.
A 10x42 might be a good dual-use compromise, assuming it also focuses close enough for daytime use.

 

[Binastro]

the magnification of a binocular is simply how many times bigger linearly it is compared to a naked eye view.
An easy way to do this is to look with say the left eye at a brick wall and with the other eye look through half of the binocular. the magnification is approximately the number of bricks seen without the binocular compared to one brick looking through the binocular.
Repeat this using the right eye.
This is because your eyes may be different.

If you need to wear glasses with binoculars then you need them to have a long eye relief and these are sometimes more expensive.

The magnifications are marked on the binocular and are usually reasonably accurate.

A wide field of view is preferable for astronomy.

The choice is partly dictated by where you live.
Also your age as an older person generally has smaller pupils than a younger person.

 

[Binastro]

. The magnification can also be thought of by the distance to the object.
If you are using a 10 times binocular and looking at something 100 m distant then with the binocular it appears to be 10 m distance.

However, hand tremors make the view less good than it should be.
This varies a lot person-to-person and with the weight of the binocular and also the shape and length of the binocular.
Sometimes an eight times binocular can show fainter stars than a 10 times binocular handheld even though with a tripod mounted binocular the opposite is the case for the same aperture binocular.

A very high transmission 10 x 42 binocular will show fainter stars than a poor transmission 10 x 50.

The 15 x 70 revelation in the UK have about 92% transmission when fully multicoated including the prisms, however even though the distributor claims all have this fully multicoating this is not the case. Some do some don't.
Also some other versions from other suppliers have quite a lot less efficient coatings.
I think the actual aperture is a bit less than 70 mm because of internal restrictions in the light path but the view through these binoculars can certainly be stunning.

but for nature study the field of view is too narrow for memory about 4.4°.

 

[oetzi]

Hello
I like stargazing and animal watching so I decided to buy a pair of binoculars for both of my hobbies.
I know that the astronomy bins are different of the nature ones.
...
My budget is 150$/118 euro, I know that good bins are more expensive,but I can't afford them.

I like to watch birds and occassionally watch those bright spots in the sky, too. (Wouldnt call myself a "birder" yet and dont know that much about stars either, but like to watch, anyway).

The two cheap ones I own
Nikon Action VII 7x35 (€ 65,-)
Opticron SR.GA 8x30 (second hand € 130,-)
do both without a problem-

Ofcourse, watching birds I see the differences in these bins compared to a way expensive Swarovski EL 8x32 SV, but even the Nikon does its job better than me in identifying what can bes seen.
When watching stars, the only major difference I notice in these three binoculars is the sharp, flat field of the Swarovski and the great sharpness and brightness of this cheap Nikon.

So with your budget I would say, get a Nikon Action VII 7x35 or 8x40 (max € 80,-) and spend what remains on a couple of good books on birds or astronomy.

 

[brocknroller]

Hello
I like stargazing and animal watching so I decided to buy a pair of binoculars for both of my hobbies.
I know that the astronomy bins are different of the nature ones.
I studied a lot about bird watching/nature/astronomy bins,and my conclusion is that I need bright ,porro bins with:

* ~7mm exit pupil,meaning:
* 8x-10x power (fixed zoom),
* 56mm-70mm front lens size(for low light conditions);
* BAK-4 prisms;
* Multicoated or fullymulticoated lens;
* Wide FOV.

Am I right ?
I don't need waterproof, and the size and weight don't matter(I'm used to big,heavy lens). I found the Nikon Action VII 10x50 but I think they are to dim for astronomy,altough they have a large FOV...
My budget is 150$/118 euro, I know that good bins are more expensive,but I can't afford them.
Can someone give me an advice ?

And one more thing,is it such a big difference between 8x and 10x magnification ? And how is the magnification calculated ? By dividing the distance to an object by 8 times , for example , or by dividing the distance 8 times by 2 ?

Thanks in advance

As someone else stated, unless you are new on Earth, you won't be able to take advantage of the 7mm exit pupil so using such a large aperture bin would be overkill and a bit limiting in term of mobility for nature watching unless you are set up in a blind.

You also need frequent access to very dark skies, which few of us have these days.

For astronomy, I definitely recommend 10x. If you can hold 12x steady, even better. DSOs might be ginormous in absolute terms but in apparent diameter, they are pretty tiny and you need to eek out as much detail as you can.

Plus, if you are going to limit yourself to 10x, you might as well get a bin you can handhold for periods. You lose some resolution with the added shakes, but you gain freedom of movement. For this reason, 10x50 is as big as you want to go.

Wide field bins are also recommended. No point in pointing a 5* 10x50 at the sky when 6.5* bins are available.

Other than birds, you usually can't or don't want to creep up on wildlife since they might mistake you for a meal, so a 10x IF EP bin will probably work and they are better for stargazing since you don't have to worry about pressing the eyecups too hard against your face and knocking them out the focus.

Only one question to ask. Are your arms like Popeeye's or Olive Oil's? If the former, then the Fuji 10x50 FMT(R)-SX will work well for both purposes. 65* AFOV, porro pinpoint sharp stars, and nice 3-D depth for nature watching. If the latter, call Hanz and Franz to pump you up!

The Fujis are heavy, though. I needed to take frequent rests when I used them, oddly enough more during terrestrial observation than stargazing. I used them in a reclining lawn chair for stargazing, so my face takes some of the weight for stargazing, but for nature observation, they hang out in front of you with all the weight on your arms.

I use several bins for stargazing, but my favorite is the Celestron 10x50 Nova, which has an 80* AFOV! The sweet spot is surprisingly wide, but starts are not quite as "punctiform" (as Claudio says on Cloudy Nights) as my Nikon SE.

However, my all-time favorite handheld bin for stargazing is the Nikon 12x50 SE. Narrowish FOV by comparison (5* vs. 8*), but sharp to the very edge and the resolution is amazing (I still say that was the American flag I saw on the moon .

Alas, I wouldn't recommend them for nature watching. Too hard to hold steady out in front of you, too narrow FOV, and too much CA with high contrast backgrounds.

You might want to buy a monopod if you decide to go with the 10x50 Fuji, which will make it more mobile for nature watching and help with arm fatigue.

Brock

 

[cpper]

How many answers !
Thank you all for the responses,I learned a lot just reading them.I am young,so I haven't problems with the exit pupil I think.I actually don't really know if "my" sky is very dark or not,but anyway sometimes I go hiking on the nearby mountains,where the sky is surely dark enough.I said that the weight isn't important, because I'm used to heavy cameras(4.3 kg / 9.4 pounds).
I saw that on bhphotovideo and other review sites, the Nikon 10x50 I first wanted to buy have mostly 5 star reviews.You said that 10x50 aren't very dim for astronomy so I consider to write them back on the list.The only thing that I don't like at Nikon 10x50 is that the lenses are just multicoated.Is this such a big problem ?
Thanks again for all the responses

 

[typo]

I shouldn't be commenting on astronomy use as I do little more than use stars/planets to check for sharpness. I want to make a point that was somewhat implied in earlier comments that might be worth repeating. The wider your pupils dilate the fainter the objects you will be able to see... but they will not be as sharp. That's how your eyes work. Of all my binoculars I see the moons of Jupiter as the sharpest pinpricks with my 3.75 EP pair, but they are brighter but less distinct with my 5.6mm EP pair. (My eyes won't do 7mm these days). Of course binocular sharpness does come into it as well, and it is very unlikely that a 120 Euro roof will be much use at all.

A number of porros coming out of Kunming China seem very popular with astronomers and get recommended in shoot-outs in astro magazines here, including that Revelation 15x70 Binoastro mentioned (It's sold under several brand names). Of course many are individual eyepiece focus. A feature to be avoided if you are chasing warblers, but I find it no problem at all for longer range birding.

One candidate might be the 7x50 or 10x50 sold as the Strathspey Marine at 120 Euro including tax. I have another model from the range and it's very sharp!
http://www.strathspey.co.uk/

There is a centre focus version. The UK price (Olivon FZ) is well over budget but in the US the Oberwerk series isa bit closer.
http://www.bigbinoculars.com/mseries.htm

These are built like a tank, but there is a lighter less robust CF version from the same group that has had good reports. It can be found as Hilkinson, Optical Hardware Elinor and many others as well. The prices do vary a lot but the look is very distinctive check the astro outlets where you are.
http://www.united-optics.com/Produc...Outdoor_Binoculars/BW7_Series/BW7 Series.html

David

 

[Binastro]

I would definitely put the 10 x 50 Nikon action VII back on the list.
The specifications are more honest than most and generally there are fewer problems with these.

A good 15 x 70 revelation is marvellous but they are too fragile to consider as an only binocular especially for nature watching.

Second hand a Minolta activa 10 x 50 or 12 x 50 is very good as they have high transmission and good resolution but they must be as new.

A 10 x 50 Minolta standard with 7.8° field of view is old but also excellent although the transmission is not as good as a modern binocular.

Buying new the Olympus 8 x 40 DP SI with 8.2° is good and cheap.
The Bushnell 8 x 42 H2O also 8.2° is good cheap and waterproof.
The Pentax 10 x 50 X CF 6.5° is also good and cheap.
The 8 x 40 action VII is good and cheap.
All the above are porro prism's.

In the UK the Helio's brand have several good binoculars such as the 10 x 50 ultimate HR or nature sport plus which are very good.

Personally I am not enthusiastic about Strathspey.

If you are in Eastern Europe or even elsewhere a 10 x 50 Tento is old but excellent.
The 12 x 45 Russian or Soviet is also excellent and wide field even though someone here thinks it isn't. It has very short eye relief but a good example last for years.

Some of these older binoculars don't have coatings as good as modern ones but optically they are often superior with better specifications.

In my opinion it is only when you get to £200 and above that modern binoculars are better than the old ones because of better coatings and more modern glass and possibly waterproofing.

Although there are some very good cheaper binoculars there are some awful ones with very poor quality control.

The simple choice would be the 10 x 50 Nikon action VII.

More important than the binocular is finding a really dark sky.
And also learning how to use your eyes say with averted vision.

For nature study the binoculars probably have to be stronger than for astronomy, which doesn't put much stress on binoculars unless you happen to drop them.

You don't want to drop a cheap 15 x 70 and often they are out of collimation even when new, but boy do they give a good view when they work. But again they are not ideal for nature study unless you are studying at a distance.

Some of the very fine binoculars mentioned above are way above your budget.

The quantum 15 x 70, which are heavier than the revelation and its clones would certainly be a very fine binocular but it is a bit above your budget. It really is a wonderful performer but for many it would be too heavy handheld but I think not for you.

 

[Binastro]

the quantum 4 in the UK.
10 x 60 £119 or less. But only 5.3° but should be strong and give a very good view.

15 x 70 £159 or less 4.4° these should be really good but narrow field for general nature study and also overbudget and a bit heavy for many.

These are probably sold under different names in different countries.

 

[Mark9473]

The only thing that I don't like at Nikon 10x50 is that the lenses are just multicoated.Is this such a big problem ?

Let's face it, within your budget constraints you're never going to get optical perfection. In my opinion you can generally count on Nikon glass to give you a pleasing view for the money.

 

[cpper]

Ok, I think I will stay with the 10x50. Thank you Binastro for helping me so much,I would press the "thanks" button if it would exist . I live in Eastern Europe and I didn't found the Helios in my country's shops...

 

[Binastro]

yes, I think the 10 x 50 would be best may be the Nikon action VII or a Pentax or Olympus or any other good make with a good name.

But if you find a 10 x 50 Tento in as new condition at a boot fair for five or £10 then buying it even has a second binocular would be a good idea.
Also personally I would also buy the 12 x 45 Soviet binoculars particularly those made just before the Eastern countries obtained independence. At 5 pounds or £10 if as new they would be a bargain.

I also like the 12 x 40 Soviet binocular although most of these binoculars have little eye relief but if you don't wear glasses that should be fine.

There are also good Polish and Romanian binoculars especially the military ones to look out for at boot fairs or maybe markets.

Similarly, the 8 x 30 Soviet binoculars although the export ones are probably better than for the home market. Although military ones will be to a high standard.

To examine the binocular look through the front with a bright light behind the eyepieces and make sure there is no haze or fungus inside the binocular.

Also it is vitally important to check that the binocular is well collimated i.e. both images merge exactly as one with no eyestrain after setting the IPD correctly for the distance between your eyes. If there is any eyestrain or double vision don't buy it.

 

[cpper]

I live in Romania,i will search in boot fairs,maybe I find something.

 

[typo]

Holger Merlitz has written a number of reports on Komz, IOR, Kronos, PZO and other military binoculars here:
http://www.holgermerlitz.de/
Most of these pre-date the latest coating technolgy but many seem to offer first rate optical performance if you can find them.

David

 

[cpper]

I think I will go with a pair of 10x50s
I'm not sure that the Nikon 10x50 action VII are the best at my budget , so please let me know which are in your opinion the best 10x50's at 150$ / 115€ / 100 £ ?

 

[Binastro]

. The question is what are you able to buy in your shops?
It would probably be best to buy one you can try first, so what choices do you have in 10 x 50 binocular?

Are there any special offers of £200 binoculars at half price? So you could go for a better quality binocular.

Each individual binocular also has variations but generally the 10 x 50 Nikon action VII have less variability than most.

Additionally, you should buy the binocular you have tested and not an identical boxed binocular unless you try this also. In other words you should try the one you want to buy.

Buying by mail order is a lottery regarding the quality of the individual binocular and the fact that it can be knocked out of collimation in transit.

Also what is the reputation of the supplier in your country regarding any faults that may arise?