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Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

Binocular Weight, a Triviality? (3 Viewers)

Have you actually tried anything with a 6 mm or 7 mm exit pupil? There are many reports here on BF where first users experienced a 7x42 as a revelation.
My 2 cents.
Background: I am a believer in the creed of 7x42 (or 7x35), a true devotee. No other binocular has given me the same viewing amazement and pleasure as a 7x42 Zeiss FL.

However, while I've run marathons, climbed glaciers and hauled a fully loaded bicycle across countries... I do indeed notice the difference between a 750 g binocular and a 580 g binocular around my neck. Hence, believe it or not, I've sold the two units of the Zeiss FL 7x42 I've owned (as well as other very nice 7x42 like the Ultravid HD) and my most used binoculars are an 8x32 at 580 g (which I wish were 530 g honestly).

That is to say, I think there is indeed a number of people for whom weight and bulk (or the perception thereof) are key for an everyday binocular; I've enjoyed armchair astro sessions with a 1,5 kg Fujinon, but that's a completely different story. For the most of the birding I do, watching birds involves walking for hours carrying something on my neck (I've tried using a harness, but I find it has its own problems, like the fact that I always carry a backpack and they don't work as well with it), and this is why I prefer something around 500 g than something around 750 g. Yes I do feel the difference those 250 g make, sorely. Actually, I much prefer carrying a 435 g Monarch 7 to my 580 g ELSV, but I find the viewing comfort is much greater in the ELSV and the performance difference is noticeable. Do I prefer the view through the 7x42 FL to the 8x32 ELSV? Yes, on many aspects I do, but not enough to overcome the size/weight difference (actually, I paid less for both FL I've had than for my ELSV, so price is not a consideration). My ideal binoculars are the Leica 7x35 Retrovid with a 5 mm EP, the classical 7x depth of field and a lovely view at 570 g (even less than my 8x32 ELSV), but then the eyecups on the Retrovid are so narrow that they ruin the experience... and back to the starting point.

I do think weight is a very important aspect of an everyday ("walking") pair of binoculars (not if you're in a hide or stationary position). In my particular case, if this is of any help to gain insights and enrich discussion, the balance of performance/weight has led me to the 580 g of the 8x32 EL, but the 450 g of the Opticron Traveller are also quite impressive and attractive. I know it might sound stupid or weird, but I just don't "see" the 8x42 binocular as an everyday device for birding (except for maybe something like the MHG), and I know millions do. My first good binocular was a 8x42 Zeiss Conquest HD... which I ended up selling to buy a 8x32 when I faced the truth: many days I left the 795 g of the Conquest at home and grabbed my partner 8x32 Kowa. On 95 % of the time I go birding, the 8x32 ELSV are more than enough, even during twilight hours (maybe my preference for a 8x32 also has to do with the fact that I live in the Mediterranean)... and on that other 5 % of the time, I'm better off with something more "suited" than a 8x42, like a 7x50 (I enjoy a lovely 740 g Vixen Ultima porro that gives me that "7x experience to an incredible degree), or else 8x56, 10x50, etc. So, in my case, a 750 g 8x42 is just not an option as an everyday binocular (same can be said about the 7x42), and I know I'm missing great things like the SLC... or even the mighty NL.

So there you go.

(I think I've never actually stopped to think the compromises in terms of build quality, materials and -probably- durability the weight reduction involves, I'll look for the mentioned thread in CN, sounds really interesting, thanks for bringing that up!)
 
Perhaps the majority still prefer full-size binoculars and FLs, SFs, ELs and NLs were first marketed as 42s, but the delay in offering the 32 mm versions is an indication that Zeiss and Swarovski were responding to customer demand and a perceived need for a lighter binocular. As soon as the 42s came out, Birdforum members started clamouring for Noctivid, SF and NL 32s.
AFAIK the sales figures for 42mm models are quite a bit higher than those for 32mm models. So it makes sense for the manufacturers to focus on 42mm models first. Interestingly Leica doesn't even offer a Noctivid and a Retrovid 32mm. I'm sure that's because they believe the sales figures wouldn't justify the development costs.
Formula One drivers are admittedly extremely fit athletes but it seems absurd for birders to quibble about 1% of the load. This is the mentality that brought us heated steering wheels! Comfort is the overriding priority. Two hundred grammes here or there is also insignificant compared to 3-5 kg of scope and tripod.
I'm not into heated steering wheels. However, there is IMO a difference between binoculars weighing 650 gr. and 850 to 900 gr. no matter how "comfortable" the carrying strap is. And harnesses don't work for everyone. Lighter binoculars are also easier to use because I find I can hold them steady for longer periods of time than heavier binoculars.

Scopes are different. They don't hang from your neck, they can be carried in a backpack. And once you are in an area where you want to bird they can be set up and stand on their own.

Hermann
 
Surely there are components that are suitable applications for plastics? Maybe the cradle that carries the focusing lens with metal bushes as bearings to take the sliding motion and not wear out, and of course thinner armour is a way to save weight.
Sure. And there are plastics that are quite suitable even for focusers: Polyoxymethylene - Wikipedia
Carbon fibre binos are sometimes wished for on here but drilling and machining laminates using rotary cutting tools or waterjetting are specialist skills and equipment which are not acquired overnight and which, during developing these skills, will likely result in many costly de-laminated and scrapped bino tubes. This rate of scrap would likely not reduce to the same level as machined aluminium or magnesium.
From all I know carbon fibre is very difficult to use in complex housings. There's a reason why it's rarely used by e.g. camera manufacturers even though top quality telephoto lenses are a heck of a lot more expensive than the most expensive binoculars.

Hermann
 
Surely there are components that are suitable applications for plastics?
Well, Lee the FL bodies were largely composite, glass-filled polyamide I believe.
It was light, dimensionally stable within the temperature range and impact-resistant. Zeiss considered it the ideal material but the lack of customer acceptance persuaded them to return to magnesium alloy for the HTs and subsequent premium bins.

John
 
On the one hand, when your a lightweight travelling grams-hunter, less weight the better.
For functionality I find somewhat weight helping stability. Monarch hg 8x42 is a bit too light too hold very steady but travels great with it.

Size matters more to me, which has other functional disadvantages. I find the Meostars having a nice compromise.
 
So I'll admit that a larger objective binocular is USUALLY optically superior. Probably more user-friendly too. BUT....

How many here are actual avid birders? Seriously....

I may put my binocular on at my HOUSE before I even leave...if not then I do at my first birding stop and then it doesn't come off until I'm done at my LAST birding stop or when I get home. Birds are many times seen while on the road and some good ones too. So driving with a binocular in a harness, using with one hand on the binocular at times one hand on the steering wheel. Getting in and out at birding stops. Holding your binoculars straight up for quite a while many times! Maybe I even had to hustle to get to where the birds are. Carrying a Sony RX-10 III on one shoulder, a Meopta S-1 on the other, and a binocular strapped to my chest.

Yes sir, weight matters....
^^^ THIS.

When knee deep in Arctic Norwegian snow, 6 /7 hours on foot across the sea shores, weight mattered. Every ounce saved as an ounce less to worry about.

Weight matters. Bigly.
 
To sum up this thread in a nut shell, what viewers get out of it:

Weight matters for some viewers, for others it does not.
 
Well, Lee the FL bodies were largely composite, glass-filled polyamide I believe.
It was light, dimensionally stable within the temperature range and impact-resistant. Zeiss considered it the ideal material but the lack of customer acceptance persuaded them to return to magnesium alloy for the HTs and subsequent premium bins.

John
Yes you are correct John and I for one found this absolutely accceptable in 42mm and 32mm FLs. However I was literally addressing the question of carbon-fibre (not glass-fibre) which I have understood to have special manufacturing problems.

Lee
 
In another thread I asked this question a day or two back. It had been shown that the 1950s (Zeiss) Hensoldt 15x56 roof-prism binocular was only 670 grams. Why are today's best models this heavy in contrast? Note, that was: roof, and 56 mm, but 670 g.

Is it that it's possible to make such (i.e. top-tier) models lighter, but there simply isn't a need by enough consumers?

If that is not the reason then I would like specific technical answers, thanks. That other thread has floated off in various directions (discussions with the OP there on straightforward real-life matters can become a bit, shall we say, adventurous) and the question has not yet been answered in it.

What I seek to know is just info. of the following kind: More lenses for closer focus, wider views, flatter views, easier viewing? More complex focus mechanisms (e.g. central focusing that is sealed in, central diopter control)? More durable bodies? Better waterproofing? (I may be missing critical factor/s there.) If any of those, then, although expanding will be appreciated, even a simple Yes for that will do!
 
Manufacturers aren't infallible - many duff decisions have been made, because of uniducated customers (mostly HunTers - birders rarely run over their bins in SUV's) , silly fashions (such as contrived hands forward focus wheel positions and extraneous [heavy] extra bridges, and even believing their own press - marketing bunkum ....

Of course weight matters, quality, and engineering precision and sophistication matters.

A post by John A Roberts in another thread showed that the optical train of the Swarovski SV was about ~300grams, so over 1/2 a kilo is 'other stuff' .......

There's no reason that light weight need mean shortcuts, inferior quality, or poor reliability .....

It won't be long before things are 3-D printed while most of the workers sleep.

Would I like an 8x42 NL in the low 600's gram range - you betcha !




Chosun 🙅
 
In another thread I asked this question a day or two back. It had been shown that the 1950s (Zeiss) Hensoldt 15x56 roof-prism binocular was only 670 grams. Why are today's best models this heavy in contrast? Note, that was: roof, and 56 mm, but 670 g.

Is it that it's possible to make such (i.e. top-tier) models lighter, but there simply isn't a need by enough consumers?

If that is not the reason then I would like specific technical answers, thanks. That other thread has floated off in various directions (discussions with the OP there on straightforward real-life matters can become a bit, shall we say, adventurous) and the question has not yet been answered in it.

What I seek to know is just info. of the following kind: More lenses for closer focus, wider views, flatter views, easier viewing? More complex focus mechanisms (e.g. central focusing that is sealed in, central diopter control)? More durable bodies? Better waterproofing? (I may be missing critical factor/s there.) If any of those, then, although expanding will be appreciated, even a simple Yes for that will do!
I don't know of the 15x56 Hensoldt, but presume it was closely related to the 8x56 Hensoldt, later Zeiss 8x56 Dialyt.
This was a very simple construction with a cemented doublet objective, Abbe-König prisms and 3-element Kellner eyepieces in a focussing bridge, so it lacked an internal focussing lens.
Field of view was a modest 110 m @ 1000 m, which probably did not demand very massive prisms. I have a test report from 2006 and that version weighed 1000 g, partly due no doubt to the rubber armouring. Transmission was simply outstanding at 94,3% day and 93,1% night.
I also recall reading of a birder, who had the rubber armouring of his 7x42 Dialyt replaced with leatherette to save weight.
The Leica Ultravid BLs were also exceptionally light for 42 mm binoculars

John
 
To sum up this thread in a nut shell, what viewers get out of it:

Weight matters for some viewers, for others it does not.
To sum up this forum: there is no perfect binocular, and individuals prefer different compromises for various reasons (while of course worrying that other preferences are having greater influence on the market, as they can easily seem to). At least we can hope to discuss or lament this less than ideal situation civilly. Having totally fallen in love with my recently acquired SLC 56s (on a short, contoured strap!) I'm sympathetic to John's perspective, but still straddle the fence myself, with my trusty UV 32 as well. The quality being high enough, I find each excellent in its own right and preferable at times to the other, for fairly obvious reasons. It's ultimately just a question of the best tool for the situation, and with a sufficient range of choice one can find that, or those.
 
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To pick up on adhoc’s post #31 and John’s post #35 . . .

Pages from two pre-WWII Hensoldt catalogues, showing how remarkably light the larger objective models were, can be found in post #15 at:
The Remarkable First Zeiss Conquests

The reason for the lightness was because they were mainly just magnesium and air! See an image of a CF 8x56 from a pre-WWII flyer.
And as can be seen, the 8x56's eyepiece was just 2 thin lenses in 2 groups: as simple - and as basic - as can be.
In contrast, the eyepiece of the later Zeiss version described by John, has 3 thicker lenses.

And an interesting aside . . .
Prior to WWII, one of the stated advantages of the Hensoldt roof prism binoculars compared to conventional Porro prism ones, was the ability in an emergency to remove the Abbe-Koenig prisms for cleaning or replacement!
See the pages from a Swift and Anderson catalog for 1930-1931, which can be found in post #15 by Ed at: Old Zeisses still in use today


John
 

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To sum up this forum: there is no perfect binocular, and individuals prefer different compromises for various reasons (while of course worrying that other preferences are having greater influence on the market, as they can easily seem to). At least we can hope to discuss or lament this less than ideal situation civilly.
If I were a psychologist I would visit the BF often to get material for my next book....
 
To pick up on adhoc’s post #31 and John’s post #35 . . .
John,

Looking at those cutaways, what is even more remarkable is that the 8x56 Victory FL, in the same 2006 test mentioned above, achieved a daytime transmission of 94,5% and 94% at night.
And that with six air/glass surfaces in the objectives, six in the eyepieces, focussing lenses and bigger prisms with a longer glass path!

John
 
There is a big difference between carrying and using. It wouldn't be a big deal for me to carry around heavy binoculars all day if I was only briefly looking through them from time to time. If I am holding them up to my face for hours throughout the day scanning the sky or sea, weight is important. This is why I highly value lightweight binoculars.
 
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