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American Ornithologists Union (2 Viewers)

.... By naming the organization after an existing group with a long history of ornithology, they are trying to cash in on that recognition. If the AOU makes a change people may get it legitimately confused with the AOS’s changes, just causing confusion

Secondly, we have the “journal” itself, which as others say just seems to exist as a webpage. It’s missing most of the basics I would expect for a journal that seems to want to publish other people’s work......

..... I have trouble seeing many people lining up to publish here, and I am skeptical they have the ability to produce and maintain their own independent checklist.

Morgan, you're falling victim to very problem you pointed out!! (as are others here and understandably so - so don't feel bad!)

The new "AOU" sensu stricto is not a journal publisher just like the AOU sensu latu was. Quoting from the "About" page:

"We host, publish, and manage lists of bird names, scientific and vernacular, to improve knowledge and communication about birds."

"We are not a membership society (see Support). We do not plan to publish a typical scientific journal, but rather one that includes articles on avian diversity, taxonomy, and nomenclature. We do not plan to have meetings." Emphasis mine.



It's not a journal or a scientific society, or many of the other things that the old AOU was. It's simply Kevin Winker's rebellion checklist and I'm guessing the "publication" will just be whatever they feel they need to support/justify their checklist. Sort of like a blog but in scientific journal language, maybe?
 
Apostrophe indicates 'of'. Old AOU was a union of ornithologists. Maybe this new 'AOU' is a union for some ornithologists? As opposed to Bird names for birds. In the meantime, there is a biodiversity and extinction crisis going on ...

I'm only disappointed that this split of a nomenclatural committee didn't use hyphens in the name; the American Ornithologists-Union, to indicate that it is discreet type of union, not to be confused with other unrelated and polyphyletic Unions. That would certainly clear things right up.

But it is curious that it was the pro-eponym crowd that did away with the apostrophe!
 
Morgan, you're falling victim to very problem you pointed out!! (as are others here and understandably so - so don't feel bad!)

The new "AOU" sensu stricto is not a journal publisher just like the AOU sensu latu was. Quoting from the "About" page:

"We host, publish, and manage lists of bird names, scientific and vernacular, to improve knowledge and communication about birds."

"We are not a membership society (see Support). We do not plan to publish a typical scientific journal, but rather one that includes articles on avian diversity, taxonomy, and nomenclature. We do not plan to have meetings." Emphasis mine.



It's not a journal or a scientific society, or many of the other things that the old AOU was. It's simply Kevin Winker's rebellion checklist and I'm guessing the "publication" will just be whatever they feel they need to support/justify their checklist. Sort of like a blog but in scientific journal language, maybe?
If they don't intend it to be a journal than they seriously need to go through and delete or fix the authors page, and you also have to explain how they deliberately set up there checklist as a journal article. Like...clearly they intend that paper to be treated as a scientific paper.

At any rate, if they are just creating there own checklist for funsies, than it's no different from Taxonomy in Flux, which has a head start as far as useful information goes (I love TiF and use it regularly, even if I don't always agree with the decisions). As far as I know not many people use TiF as there checklist baseline. I'd have to imagine this checklist would get a similar reception.

Although this does make me realize I should really just go ahead and create a website for my own checklist project!
 
If they don't intend it to be a journal than they seriously need to go through and delete or fix the authors page, and you also have to explain how they deliberately set up there checklist as a journal article. Like...clearly they intend that paper to be treated as a scientific paper.

At any rate, if they are just creating there own checklist for funsies, than it's no different from Taxonomy in Flux, which has a head start as far as useful information goes (I love TiF and use it regularly, even if I don't always agree with the decisions). As far as I know not many people use TiF as there checklist baseline. I'd have to imagine this checklist would get a similar reception.

Although this does make me realize I should really just go ahead and create a website for my own checklist project!

You are correct that they used a citable journal format for their checklist, so if that's what you mean by having it be treated as a scientific paper - then sure. If you want me personally to explain how and why they did so, obviously I can't - and it would be unfair of me to speculate. But it is perfectly legal for anyone to do so.

I've already pointed out the things they put forth that indicate they are not behaving as an actual journal, but we can also look at the things that are missing.

- The entire acknowledgement section of the checklist is as follows: "We thank the many people whose observations, field work, specimen collection, and research have laid the groundwork for such a comprehensive taxonomic list." No mention of peer review. Or any review.

- Mission statement: notably lacking anything about a journal or even the word "publishing." They are "dedicated to advancing knowledge and effective communication about birds" which can be done in a number of ways that do not include a peer-reviewed journal. They do at least "focus on a scientifically based understanding" so at least science is mentioned, but if a scientific journal was the intent, it certainly is curious that they would feel the need to point out a scientific focus. Of course, if the intent is to have a checklist that rejects "non-scientific" influences, well that makes perfect sense then.

- When we get down to the word "publish" in the section "About" the organization, it is specifically referring to publication of "lists of bird names." Everything else in that section is about checklists and bird names... and nothing about a journal.

- If you wanted to publish a peer-reviewed article with this organization (a rebuttal perhaps?), how would you do so? I'll give you a hint - don't bother looking on their website for instructions. You can send them an email to "document reasons if or when their list departs from others" which again can be done in a number of non-peer reviewed ways, though they do ask for citations to other publications for a justification. If they can afford to, they may elect to post "something" for you. But importantly peer review is not mentioned on this or any other page. Instead the concern is that "If a proposal’s quality falls short of enabling thorough, scholarly evaluation, it may be returned without review, perhaps with revisions suggested. (Not allowing this type of response to a proposal risks its voting outcome being not about the issue itself but rather something different, e.g., gaps in the proposal’s scholarship.)" A strange statement... only if it were meant to describe a peer-review process but without actually saying so. However, this seems to me a succinct description of what an editor or editorial board might do.

- At least in the U.S., its a big deal to be a non-profit publisher (or a non-profit anything) for many reasons, but especially tax code. Check out all the disclosure on the AOS website - they even include their tax filings to the Internal Revenue Service! (Governance - American Ornithological Society (AOS)) The "Disclaimer" section on the AOU website would be the place for those details, right? But instead, we see a justification/statement leading to their assertion that they "not be held responsible for any discomfort, inconvenience, offense, mental and/or emotional distress, or other possible negative consequences potentially caused" by bird names, and I wish I were kidding. What a strange one-and-only disclaimer for a journal, but a sensible one for an "upstart" checklist.


As I think you have correctly diagnosed, the science-adjacent presentation is "sketchy." And as I think you have also correctly diagnosed, it is otherwise no different than Taxonomy in Flux in basic principle. I too have no issue with TIF or your checklist or any other alternatives I'm aware of - including this new AOU one. But I do believe it is important to call them what they are, and not what they're not. Because after all, "Wisdom begins with putting the right name on a thing."
 
"Passing off" (here, misrepresentation of the AOU brand and trading off their goodwill) would be an infringement of civil rights in most countries, presumably, most US states too.

I think we're talking about different things. I was referring to the act of publishing something in scientific format - to my knowledge there is no requirement anywhere that it must be peer-reviewed or in other words "actual" science, aside from the publishing standards of any journal itself. Famously, even outright scientific fraud is not punishable unless some sort of evidential financial fraud accompanies it. Except via reputation and standing.

I don't think the "copying" of the old AOU brand would constitute any civil rights issue to my understanding, but it could conceivably become a copywrite or branding infringement. In the U.S. that would require the nonprofit AOS to have the desire and the resources to prove damages, and possibly intent of infringement, and probably other hassles. An actual trial sounds like an unlikely thing for AOS to try to justify spending large legal fees to its members. But if there is actual animosity between the parties, I could see a strongly worded cease-and-desist order as not entirely surprising. Interesting.
 
I don't think the "copying" of the old AOU brand would constitute any civil rights issue to my understanding, but it could conceivably become a copywrite or branding infringement. In the U.S. that would require the nonprofit AOS to have the desire and the resources to prove damages, and possibly intent of infringement, and probably other hassles. An actual trial sounds like an unlikely thing for AOS to try to justify spending large legal fees to its members. But if there is actual animosity between the parties, I could see a strongly worded cease-and-desist order as not entirely surprising. Interesting.
I would agree. I am sure AOS members probably have a lot more pressing issues on there minds given the current administration than trademark infringement of a at this point obscure website.
 
I still can't believe they missed the opportunity to call it American Common Gull, which would have forced us to call our version the Common Common Gull.
So beautiful 🥲

And then we split heinei to Russian Common Common Gull and leave canus as Common Common Common Gull. Or Triple-C gull, like the cool birders say.
 
Has anyone read the cited sources on the "Why a New AOU?" page? One cited "journal"(?) uses "woke" and "victimhood" to tag the article about bird names being a "new type of colonization", and another citation is a tirade about "race ideology" and the "woke birding elite" hosted on the website of right-wing conspiracy theorist David Horowitz. This "new AOU" is not the work of serious academics. As generous as one may want to be to them, they obviously chose the name hoping to ride the coattails of a prestigious defunct organization. If they hadn't, no one would have heard of them and they would just be raging into the void of the internet about the AOS gone woke.
 
Has anyone read the cited sources on the "Why a New AOU?" page? One cited "journal"(?) uses "woke" and "victimhood" to tag the article about bird names being a "new type of colonization", and another citation is a tirade about "race ideology" and the "woke birding elite" hosted on the website of right-wing conspiracy theorist David Horowitz. This "new AOU" is not the work of serious academics. As generous as one may want to be to them, they obviously chose the name hoping to ride the coattails of a prestigious defunct organization. If they hadn't, no one would have heard of them and they would just be raging into the void of the internet about the AOS gone woke.

The International Ornithologists of Clevedon (IOC) have withdrawn their offer of affiliation.

All the best

Paul
 
Good lord it’s almost hard to believe it isn’t April 1st.

As far as the name, I guess this comes from at least one of the people who gave us Short-billed Gull because retaining Mew Gull would cause confusion. Pretty rich stuff.
I'm catching up on new threads so have some older stuff open and actually scrolled back up to the OP to check the date on this one.
 

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