Snow Goose Ticking (1 Viewer)

[West End Birder]

Hi All

There is a chance I might see a 'Lesser Snow Goose' in Norfolk this week. How does this fit in with the UK BOU list that I use? Is it akin to say Black Brant being part of 'Brent Goose'?

The reason I ask is that this would be a lifer and, more importantly, another off the 'regulars' from the Shell Guide - just wondering if at some stage in the future it might become its own species?

Thanks

Rob

 

[Nutcracker]

Yep, a subspecies of Snow Goose, not 'tickable' in its own right separate from other Snow Geese - though obviously, as you've not seen any Snow Goose, then you can tick it as Snow Goose.

The other problem is its credentials - is it wild (tickable), or out of a zoo (not tickable!!)?

 

[West End Birder]

I know the zoo issue (I'm not that crap!) and it is with (I assume) Pink Feets in Norfolk - not bad credentials though better had it been in Scotland I guess - still, ahem, some Hants birders have Snow Goose on their list from the flock at Eversley (missed those ;-)

Thanks for the info

 

[Hotspur]

Snow Goose with Pinks or Greenland white-fronts in Norfolk/Lancashire/Cumbria/Aberdeenshire/Fife/Northumberland/Argyll etc wouldn't seem to suggest anything other than a wild bird to me. And the feral Argyll ones are cat c anyway.

 

[Richard Klim]

Snow Goose is a real anomaly in the BB system – an unusual example of a vagrant to GB that has effectively been completely abandoned by BB. Although it's on Cat A (1st record 1917) and is perhaps still a genuine 'rare', it's not considered by BBRC (nor even by the BB report on scarce migrants) due to potential confusion with the Argyll Cat C2 population and local escapes / non self-sustaining populations (Cat E*).

And yet BBRC is happy to accept all GB records of (eg) Blue-winged Teal as Nearctic vagrants...

 

[West End Birder]

Same for Ross's Goose I guess?

Well I will tick it if I am lucky enough to see it (353)!

 

[Farnboro John]

Same for Ross's Goose I guess?

Well I will tick it if I am lucky enough to see it (353)!

Its a wild bird, stick it on. I shall be up to photograph it before New Year.

John

 

[Phil Andrews]

Same for Ross's Goose I guess?

Well I will tick it if I am lucky enough to see it (353)!

Except Ross's Goose isn't on the British List

 

[Paul Chapman]

Has anyone got any views as to whether Lesser or Greater Snow Goose has the better vagrancy potential? I had always assumed Greater but just having looked in Sibley and Wildfowl, I am more indecisive.

(No need to make any comparisons to American White Ibis!)

All the best

 

[West End Birder]

I doubt I am going to see one (dodgy or not) anyway.

Would be very pleased if I saw it, that'd be my 5th lifer this year (amateur!)

 

[Richard Klim]

Subspecies

Has anyone got any views as to whether Lesser or Greater Snow Goose has the better vagrancy potential?

Both Lesser (caerulescens) and Greater (atlanticus) are on the British List as scarce migrants, but most individuals in Ireland identified to race have been caerulescens. However it might be rather academic given suggestions that the species would be better treated as monotypic.

Mowbray et al 2000 (BNA Online)...

Geographic variation
Geographic variation in size and color among populations. Geese from eastern population are primarily large birds (referred to as "Greater Snow Goose," C. c. atlantica), while those of midcontinent and western breeding populations are smaller birds (referred to as "Lesser Snow Goose," C. c. caerulescens; Cooke et al. 1995, Reed et al. 1998). Since adult body size is influenced by the feeding conditions where goslings are raised, it is not always a good indicator of population differentiation.
...
Subspecies
Two subspecies appear extensively in the literature and currently recognized for management purposes: C. c. caerulescens (Linnaeus, 1758) known as Lesser Snow Goose, and C. c. atlantica Kennard, 1927, known as Greater Snow Goose. Sufficient overlap in size may warrant dropping the subspecific designation (Cooke et al. 1995).

Alderfer 2014 (Complete Birds of North America)...

Size overlaps and perhaps better considered monotypic.

H&M4...

atlanticus (Kennard, 1927) Perhaps undiagnosable (Cooke et al. 1995).

 

[Paul Chapman]

Richard - many thanks.

Intriguingly, Saunders & Eagle Clarke (1927) refer to multiple Lesser Snow Geese vagrants at that point but only two Greater Snow Geese.

BWP (1977) does not comment on relative proportions of vagrants.

A check of personal records shows three white presumed Greater Snow Geese with pink-feet on different dates in the 90's when I did a lot of twitching (all three in Scotland and two on 1st April in different years ironically) and I seem to recall seeing a blue Lesser Snow Goose with whoopers at Welney?

Snow Goose was removed from the BBRC list in 1963. Anyone know how many annual records at that point?

(Just gone on line to answer my own question and looked at the 1958, 1959, et al BBRC Reports which set out with increasing frustration the inability to tell wild Snow Geese from escapees - http://www.bbrc.org.uk/resources .)

All the best

 

[Nutcracker]

Should just mention – I've never heard a Snow Goose ticking. Be very cautious, very cautious indeed. It might explode.




3

 

[Paul Chapman]

Should just mention – I've never heard a Snow Goose ticking. Be very cautious, very cautious indeed. It might explode.

3

It's that type of theory that leads to this:-

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=295610

All the best

 

[Egret]

I wise friend once said "it's your list, you decide". He's not the only one to say that of course but the point is important. Why get caught up in the Byzantine and often, ridiculous, politics of the "officials"? I still treasure the memory of a black swan on a Cornish reservoir; cold, wet, miserable day that was cheered up by this bird. Might have to accept that it was a "plastic" bird but I still remember it with pleasure.

 

[Farnboro John]

Holkham, Norfolk, 1 Jan 1986
Martin Mere, Lancashire, 22 Dec 1991
Docking, Norfolk, 18 Jan 1997
Welney WWT, Norfolk, 24 Jan 1997
Mersehead RSPB, Dumfries and Galloway, 20 Mar 2000 (Marion)
Holkham, Norfolk 16 Jan 2005

My own score to date. The Welney one arrived with Whoopers, the Mersehead bird was with Barnacle Geese and the others all with Pinkfeet. I have no worries about any of them.

I've been assuming that the one currently in Norfolk is the bird previously in Lancashire: when that was first reported I thought "that'll be in Norfolk before long..." Any opinions?

John

 

[Stephen Dunstan]

Mersehead RSPB, Dumfries and Galloway, 20 Mar 2000 (Marion)

Any opinions?

Only that Snow Geese with forenames are probably dodgy.

Edit - actually I have another opinion previously expressed on here, which is that when a serious case was made for the group virtually in mid summer at Slimbridge the other year it was all the proof you will ever need that someone will say a Snow Goose is wild unless it has half a wing or more missing.

Stephen

 

[West End Birder]

Well I'm in downtown Hunstanton now. Does anyone know what time of day the bird is visible. Do they disappear early in morning? Or is it visible all day?

Thanks

 

[Farnboro John]

Only that Snow Geese with forenames are probably dodgy.

Edit - actually I have another opinion previously expressed on here, which is that when a serious case was made for the group virtually in mid summer at Slimbridge the other year it was all the proof you will ever need that someone will say a Snow Goose is wild unless it has half a wing or more missing.

Stephen

Sorry, straight cut and paste from my own records, which include noting which bird my wife ticked (since she has no interest in keeping a list).

I agree with you up to a point. Common sense (which is neither common nor a sense) needs to be applied to vagrant geese.

John

 

[Farnboro John]

Well I'm in downtown Hunstanton now. Does anyone know what time of day the bird is visible. Do they disappear early in morning? Or is it visible all day?

Thanks

The following is general information that needs to be made particular during the course of tomorrow.

The Pinkfeet roost in West Norfolk but fly out to feed early in the morning. Given the numbers, trying to spot the Snow Goose coming out of roost is dodgy at best.

Over the last few days the flock which the Snow Goose accompanies has been seen in several localities which it has visited on more than one day. The chances are tomorrow it will go where it was today - that's where I would start, anyway.

This afternoon it was at Holkham "visible from Washington Hide". As a bonus there were 10 Barnacle Geese which may well be proper wild, and a couple of Rough-legs in the area. There are also odd Tundra Bean Geese (picking those out of Pinkfoot flocks will entertain you!) and European Whitefronts about so you could have a decent goose day.

But the flock may go somewhere else, so if you haven't seen it by say 1100hrs I should check the local birdline or on-line sources to see if anyone has found it at a different site.

Good hunting

John