8x or 10x for beginner binoculars? (1 Viewer)

[Samizdat2003]

I am essentially a beginner when it comes to birding and I'm trying to decide on relatively inexpensive binoculars. The biggest question I face is what magnification I should get. I am leaning toward the new Nikon Monarch 5 series (which will now have ED glass) so I am essentially deciding between 8x42 and 10x42. The trouble is, practically all the birding sites seem to advise starting out with 8x over 10x, but a few of my friends (who are very experienced birders) recommend getting the 10x instead. As I don't have enough experience birding, I am not sure which I actually prefer using (my current bins are ultra-cheap 8x25 general-purpose Bushnell.) My friends say the "hand-shake" issue is overstated (and perhaps less of a problem with roof than porro anyway.) FOV at 1,000 yards for the Monarch 5 is 330 feet for the 8x vs. 288 ft for the 10x.

Over time I will likely develop a preference, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem: If I want better binoculars now, I need to decide before I get the experience required to make a better decision. Consequently I'd be very interested in hearing the thoughts of the other forum members on the question.

Thanks!

 

[Nigel Davies]

Hi Samizdat2003
I would always go for 8x, but try them both and one will feel right. Buy it.
all the best Nigel

 

[Johnny1]

8x would be a better all round general purpose binocular.

 

[eitanaltman]

The 8x vs 10x debate is really a personal choice, although as a general rule the 8x format is preferred for an "all around" binocular because it is generally considered to offer the best compromise of the various parameters.

The 8x42 model will generally be an "easier" binocular to use because of a few advantages:

1. Wider FOV and greater depth of field make it easier to get on the bird
2. Larger exit pupil and longer eye relief mean eye placement is more forgiving
3. Lessened hand shake may mean you see greater detail despite the lower magnification

The difference in magnification is often overrated. Since you mention you do photography in your other posts, I will make an analogy to megapixel count in digital cameras. A lot of people will "chase" megapixels thinking that more is always better, same with magnification. This is great for marketing but often doesn't yield any "real world" advantage. At long distances the magnification can definitely yield greater detail, but at most "birding distances" there is unlikely to be any difference in the amount of detail that gets to your eyeballs.

Since you mention FOV, and I did point this out in your other post on the Nikon Monarch 5 thread, there are a LOT of good options in the $300 and under category these days that will offer comparable optics and a much wider FOV than those Monarchs. Since you are in the NYC area I am confident you can find a local dealer who has many pairs that you can try out in person.

The best thing you can do is physically handle and look through multiple options to find one that "fits" you. CameraLandNY is a popular dealer located in New York which has a lot of inventory, a great return policy, and a very helpful owner (Doug) who posts on this forum frequently. Another option is B&H Photo Video.

If you can swing it, after trying some models out I would recommend buying TWO of your top contenders and taking them home to try out for a couple of weeks, and then return the "loser". Most optics retailers have liberal return policies to allow you to do in-home trials.

As to some specific recommendation in that $300 and under price bracket:

- Vanguard Endeavor ED is $299 at B&H with a $50 manufacturer rebate that will bring total cost to $249 if you keep them. It doesn't have the widest FOV (although still much larger than the Monarch) but is extremely bright and sharp and has ED glass.

- Vortex Diamondback is a very popular and rugged model that offers a wide FOV and an ironclad warranty (Vortex offers an unconditional, no-fault lifetime warranty on all their optics).

- Zen-Ray ZRS HD like the Monarch is light and compact for a 42mm binocular and offers terrific optics and a wide FOV

- If you go by CameraLandNY, ask about some of their demo / open-box deals which can allow you to get a nicer binocular for your budget. For example, just eyeballing their demo lists, the Minox BL 8x44, Meopta Meopro 8x42, and Zen-Ray ED3 (all typically around $400+) are available as open box or demo units for around $300.

 

[Samizdat2003]

Thanks for all the information, eitanaltman! I see I may well need to stray from my Nikon "comfort zone" to get the most value for my dollar. The Vanguard Endeavor ED look pretty compelling, especially given the price after rebate. I will head down to B&H soon and try them out, along with a few others. I have tried 8x and 10x binoculars before but never side-by-side; clearly I need to perform the comparison for myself. For that matter, I should bring along my current binoculars and see if I can really see a difference! And my friends have graciously offered to let me try out their Leicas as well, since at this point I'm still not sure how much better really good glass is (though if it's anything like camera lenses, I'm sure the difference will be dramatic.)

Combining the rebate with a credit I happen to have at B&H the Vanguard Endeavor ED would only cost me $215. A very nice price!

Which brings me back to the 8x vs. 10x question. Intellectually I am indeed leaning toward 8x for all the reasons you mentioned, though of course I will still do a side-by-side comparison before making a decision. A price of $215 certainly leaves open the option of acquiring a different pair in the not too distant future, should I buy 8x now and decide down the road I'd like a little more magnification.

 

[bh46118]

That's the best way to find out. Hopefully they let you go outside with them.

I will head down to B&H soon and try them out, along with a few others.

 

[looksharp65]

I used to call 8x a bad compromise, since it doesn't really have that extraordinary depth of field that a 6x to 7x has and I thought it was inferior to a 10x for long distance.

But in a recent experiment where I compared my 10x32 FL to my 8x30 E II under ideal circumstances, I was unable to detect any difference in discerning the smallest details over the longest distances (handheld but with the elbows supported). Distance was about 2000 meters.
Frankly, I was very surprised to find this.

The relative size of the blur caused by shake vs the detail size is the same independent of what magnification you use.
But the lesser motion of the image that you get with lesser magnification allows the eyes to make smaller movements to compensate for the image shake which makes seeing faster and easier.

So, for me shake is not a real issue. But the larger exit pupil/greater brightness/"faster" view and increased depth of field with smaller magnifications are more important considerations now that I have seen that the resolution advantage is almost entirely theoretical for terrestrial use.

However, I can imagine that a very good 10x50 or 10x56 would be a significant step up if compared to a top 10x32 or a good 10x42.

//L

 

[Samizdat2003]

I just performed my first not-terribly-scientific side-by-side comparison between my current very low end 8x25 pair (L.L. Bean branded Bushnell Discovery glass, $50, purchased years ago for general use) and a friend's Leica 10x32 BN. I was primarily trying to determine how much more detail I could discern at 10x over 8x. I looked out an office window in Manhattan, about eight stories above ground. Frankly I was surprised. While the image was certainly larger with the 10x, there was not all that much in the way of detail (writing on street signs, for example) that I could not also discern reasonably well on the 8x. Obviously there was some difference, but it was not anywhere near as dramatic as I'd expected. (On the other hand, I wasn't looking at diagnostic characters of birds.)

(In fact... while the image was sharper and clearer, I wasn't as blown away by the Leica as I expected I'd be, given that the competition was my bottom of the barrel cheapies. Maybe I should get my eyes checked.)

 

[eitanaltman]

Don't need to get your eyes checked, just need to hang out in these forums more and more until you grow suitable OCD about optics

Honestly, the optical differences between binoculars are largely overrated. Although I bet you would find a substantial difference between the little Bushnells and the Leicas in actual field use over time, in terms of robustness, eye fatigue, etc.

When you read internet forums you see lots of hyperbolic adjectives like "blown away!" or "night and day!" but the honest truth is that in any hobby there is a rapid progression of diminishing returns. Some people are willing to pay top dollar to have the best, even if they are only a little bit better optically than the binoculars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 the price.

And there ARE differences if you know what to look for, things like distortion, edge performance, chromatic aberration, etc. But it's sort of a curse of "ignorance is bliss", where the more you know, the more you obsess, the more you will find faults to nit-pick. But to use a digital camera analogy again, that's "pixel peeping". If all you are doing is making 800x600 digital photos for a web album, it really doesn't matter if you use the $500 Nikon D5100 or the $3,000 professional D3. Similarly, if you just want to pick the bins up and look at the bird in the middle of the FOV, pretty much any decent binocular from $200-300 on up will provide plenty of optical performance for the task.

My recommendation is to find a pair that feels good to you for $200-300, then leave these forums and never come back so you stave off any potential binocular OCD

 

[bh46118]

That's a good post.

Don't need to get your eyes checked, just need to hang out in these forums more and more until you grow suitable OCD about optics

Honestly, the optical differences between binoculars are largely overrated. Although I bet you would find a substantial difference between the little Bushnells and the Leicas in actual field use over time, in terms of robustness, eye fatigue, etc.

When you read internet forums you see lots of hyperbolic adjectives like "blown away!" or "night and day!" but the honest truth is that in any hobby there is a rapid progression of diminishing returns. Some people are willing to pay top dollar to have the best, even if they are only a little bit better optically than the binoculars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 the price.

And there ARE differences if you know what to look for, things like distortion, edge performance, chromatic aberration, etc. But it's sort of a curse of "ignorance is bliss", where the more you know, the more you obsess, the more you will find faults to nit-pick. But to use a digital camera analogy again, that's "pixel peeping". If all you are doing is making 800x600 digital photos for a web album, it really doesn't matter if you use the $500 Nikon D5100 or the $3,000 professional D3. Similarly, if you just want to pick the bins up and look at the bird in the middle of the FOV, pretty much any decent binocular from $200-300 on up will provide plenty of optical performance for the task.

My recommendation is to find a pair that feels good to you for $200-300, then leave these forums and never come back so you stave off any potential binocular OCD

 

[A2GG]

My recommendation is to find a pair that feels good to you for $200-300, then leave these forums and never come back so you stave off any potential binocular OCD

teehee...this a great post and very solid advice. I think I caught a little OCD from hanging around here myself

 

[A2GG]

In fact... while the image was sharper and clearer, I wasn't as blown away by the Leica as I expected I'd be, given that the competition was my bottom of the barrel cheapies. Maybe I should get my eyes checked.)

I had the same experience when I started looking more seriously into the different binocular models. I went to the Audobon store and tried some of the alpha brands against the bargain Leupold I had at the time. I didn't see a huge difference at all. But, once you are out there birding more and more with the bins and learning from the guys here about binoculars you will start to see the differences in the really high end bins compared to the lower end ones. But, then you'll wish you didn't know all of this Life was simpler when I first stared and had my purchased my first binoc. In the very beginning I just used the cheap pair I had and I did just fine, I saw birds, learned and had fun. You don't need to spend a ton of money to do just that.
I now have what is considered a high end binocular and I do indeed see quite a difference from what I used to use out in the field. It's nice to have something that you feel you can really rely on. Honestly though, Eitanaltman is correct here...you don't have to spend an arm and a leg to bird watch or see the bird clearly. The mid priced stuff is of very good quality these days.

 

[bh46118]

I have 6.5, 8, and 10 power, and I love my 10X Porros. For birding though, I would think the 6.5 or 8X roof would be your best bet. There are lots of almost perfect choices, but based on my personal experience with my Zen ED2 8X43, I can definitely recommend the brand.

I've heard good things about the 7X36 if you want a smaller model. http://www.amazon.com/7x36-Binoculars-Dielectric-Prism-Coating/dp/B007PW7T6Y/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1366241468&sr=8-8&keywords=zen+ray+binoculars

 

[Tvc15_2000]

I find 8s the most recommended power in my reading. For me 10s were love at first sight. I suppose the argument for 8s and less is the wider field of view which some say helps some birders find the bird faster and a panoramic view etc.

Not so for me. I like to zero right in on what I am looking at. I enjoy the extra magnification and closer look. With some practice you can find the bird instantly with any binocular. In my case I do not take my eye off the bird but bring the bins up to my eye while still looking at the bird. With a little practice it works every time for me.

Some people complain about not being able to keep the bins steady. Due to my wholesome lifestyle I do not share that shakiness, ha ha ha ha ha.

Its apparent some eyes just plain prefer one over another. But I would not go so far as to recommend what my eyes like for you. I would be miserable with the 6s and 7s some people love, and unhappy with 8s. It’s worth the effort to go out and have some fun with 10s and 8s and other choices to see what you like.

I find my 10s especially necessary during the fall raptor migration when I am making IDs at great distance and altitude. My significant other is has 8s and often borrows my 10s for a better look but still prefers 8s as long as I am around.
Good birding!

 

[Pinewood]

Hello Samizdat2003,

There is no perfect binocular. Circumstances might favor a 10X, especially in open areas; while heavily canopied forest might favor a large exit pupil and a large FOV. I walk around with an 8x32, but when I am in a good mood, I carry a 10x32, as well. In fact, I cannot use a 10X for anything much higher than the horizon, as it becomes far less steady as I angle up; while its narrow FOV makes it hard to follow birds in flight. However, at 100 metres, the 10X may give me an ID, when the eight or seven won't.

The last time, I was at B&H, they wouldn't let me outside. Cameraland on Lexington Avenue was more indulgent.

Try them first, before buying.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

 

[Samizdat2003]

All very useful information, and none of it bringing me any closer to deciding between 8x or 10x Which is to say of course that each has its advantages and I simply don't know yet which I would actually prefer to use regularly. Next time I go out birding I will have to borrow a friend's 10x and see how well I do with them (in addition to comparing them at B&H.)

Already having a cheap "walk-around" 8x binocular, I am tempted to go with 10x for my first birding glass simply to avoid redundancy, though I suppose it would be better to determine whether I really prefer 10x to 8x (or vice versa) "in the field."

Honestly, I would probably have already decided on 8x (and probably purchased them) based on advice from birding web sites alone if not for the advice of my three birding associates, who all use 10x as their regular birding binoculars and strongly encouraged me to consider 10x over 8x. (And these associates are quite serious birders; though perhaps that explains why they are willing to endure the trade-offs with 10x?) As I said, I need more experience to make the choice that is right for me. On the bright side, at sub-$300 prices whatever I buy will hardly be my last pair.

 

[FrankD]

Something else to consider. As you move down the price scale 8x binoculars are likely to produce more satisfying images compared to 10x. 10x models magnify any imperfections in the optical design. As you move down the price scale you also tend to run into more quality control issues. Since 10x models will magnify any imperfections then the logic is that lower priced 10x models won't provide as satisfying of an image in comparison to the 8x equivalent. If I was restricting my first serious birding binocular to under $300 then I would stick to 8x. If you eventually get a second and can afford to later pay a bit more, say $400-$500 then you are more likely to get a satisfying 10x binocular.

Lots of great choices in your price range.

Just a thought

 

[Chosun Juan]

Samiz, you need nines!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaX7i1Q7-Rw (courtesy Kammerdiner: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=239406&highlight=NEED+NINES)

Seriously, choosing between 8's, and 10's is a little bit like a Cricket captain trying to decide whether to bat or bowl, after winning the toss. The former Australian captain Ian Chappell had a simple rule when he won the toss: "nine times out of ten you bat first; the tenth time you think about it and still bat first". ............ And so it is with 8's.

Looksharp has pointed out that, at long distances any real differences in seeing actual detail are moot. Steve C is also of this opinion, although he'd call it a wash! No doubt, someone on here, somewhere, holds a contrary opinion! My experience is that the 10's will only show more about 20% of the time - the other 80% of the time you're living with the numerous drawbacks of the 10's (shallow dof, smaller Fov, Eye Relief, and Exit Pupil size, less brightness, and more undesireable abberations - CA, etc ..... oh, did I mention the shallow dof?). Nine times out of ten you pick the 8's; the tenth time you think about the 10's and still pick the 8's!

As Frank said, "Since 10x models will magnify any imperfections then the logic is that lower priced 10x models won't provide as satisfying of an image in comparison to the 8x equivalent". Very good advice - the story doesn't significantly change until you hit ~$800 in my view.

You mentioned that the Nikon Monarch 5's now have ED glass. ??? Not AFAIK. http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/nikon.pl?page=nikon7542-7545
The entry point into the world of ED glass AND dielectric prism coating is still the Zen-Ray ED3. This would be my choice. Check the focus action is satisfactory for you, and that you are happy that you have a sample with matching quality of view in each barrel. Hard to do better as an allround package than this for the money. Zen-Ray ED3 8x43 demo $330 http://www.cameralandny.com/optics2/zenray.pl?page=zenray-zened30843

The Vanguard Endeavour ED 8x42 has received pretty good wraps for resolution, and as you mentioned, is currently a good price $249 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...EAVOR_ED_8420_Endeavor_ED_8x42_Binocular.html
You might also consider the Vanguard Endeavour ED 8.5x45 $299 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ENDEAVOR_ED_8545_Endeavor_ED_8545_8_5x45.html (not one to ever receive much love here - you'd have to try before you buy).
There's the widefield, Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD $218 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/598315-REG/Bushnell_198042_8x42_Legend_Ultra_HD.html
And the optically similar, open bridge 8x42 Bresser $199 http://opticscamp.com/bresser-everest-binoculars/13-bresser-everest-8x42-ed-binocular-1702000.html (although I'm sure Frank will have a better deal than that sniffed out!)

The new (gamechanger???:eek! Zeiss Terra ED 8x42 $349 is also one to consider http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/920175-REG/zeiss_524205_8x42_terra_ed_binocular.html

The best policy will be to try and hands-on view these contenders, taking note of optical and ergonomic "fit" for you, clarity, ease of view, ability to peer into the shadows, ability to handle high contrast situations, etc - plain ol' whichever one you like best! Good luck!


Chosun :gh:

And of course, there really is the option of Nines !! :cat: Pentax BR 9x42 $326 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768090-REG/Pentax_62598_DCF_BR_9x42_Binocular.html

 

[eitanaltman]

Seriously, choosing between 8's, and 10's is a little bit like a Cricket captain trying to decide whether to bat or bowl, after winning the toss. The former Australian captain Ian Chappell had a simple rule when he won the toss: "nine times out of ten you bat first; the tenth time you think about it and still bat first". ............ And so it is with 8's.

Your dealing with Americans, Chosun. That analogy might as well have been written in Chinese

You mentioned that the Nikon Monarch 5's now have ED glass. ??? Not AFAIK. http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/n...nikon7542-7545

I'm a bit shocked that such an active forum regular would have missed the announcement. Nikon is coming out with an updated Monarch 5 with ED glass. There was a thread about it on the main forum and Mike F just posted a thread about it in the Nikon sub forum.

 

[Chosun Juan]

Your dealing with Americans, Chosun. That analogy might as well have been written in Chinese

Eitan, I think you're right! :-O
严重的是，选择在8和10之间有一点点像板球队长试图决定是否蝙蝠或碗，中奖后的折腾。当他赢得了折腾，前澳大利亚队队长伊恩·查普尔有一个简单的规则：“十次有九次，你第一击;第十次你想想，还是先蝙蝠”。 ............因此，这是8。

I'm a bit shocked that such an active forum regular would have missed the announcement. Nikon is coming out with an updated Monarch 5 with ED glass. There was a thread about it on the main forum and Mike F just posted a thread about it in the Nikon sub forum.

Been busy B o Lynx ?? :cat:

(and here's me thinking that if it's not on the "WOW" thread it's just not happenin' !!) Hahahaha !! :brains:
looks like you have to go Dutch to keep yer finger on the pulse :hippy: :bounce: 8-P
In general Nikons don't float ma boat - easier cleaning up a mad woman's s**t than trying to sort through their product line up !!
More interested in the ones that go 'click' ...........



Chosun :gh: