Night bins/owling bins - what do I need? (1 Viewer)

[KorHaan]

Hello to all dedicated bin experts,

I would like some advice here.

I'm about to decide on a binocular which will give me pleasant, easy viewing well into the night, from dusk to dark, and I can't make up my mind which one to get.
Obviously a big aperture binocular would be the one to go for, for as much light gathering power as possible, but there are complications.
I am 53 ( 54 next month ), and my preferred daylight bins are Canon IS 10x30 and 18x50. I appreciate the steady image through the Canons, but I'd like to have something better to use at night. The exit pupils ( 3 and 2.8 mm respectively) are not going to do. I know this from experience, owling with them.

So far I have considered:

Zeiss 8x56 Dialyt Classic roofs
Swarovski Habicht 7x42 porro's
Canon 10x42 IS L porro II's
Steiner Discovery 8x44 roofs; open bridge.

The Zeiss Classics are the summit of my budget. Anything more expensive is out of the question, so no big 50/56 mm Swarovski's and 56mm Zeiss FL's.

I'm quite fond of the Canons I own, and I know that image stabilization makes up for what the exit pupil lacks in detail recognition.

I'm wondering how the Steiners perform in very low light.

Anyone like to comment/recommend?

Best regards,

Ronald

 

[Pinewood]

Hello Ronald,

Before commenting on a binocular, I would like to know if you are going to use a tripod or monopod for your viewing. I would think that an exit pupill larger than 6 mm. would not help you, now or in the future.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

 

[Martin Fagg]

Hello to all dedicated bin experts,

I would like some advice here.

I'm about to decide on a binocular which will give me pleasant, easy viewing well into the night, from dusk to dark, and I can't make up my mind which one to get.
Obviously a big aperture binocular would be the one to go for, for as much light gathering power as possible, but there are complications.
I am 53 ( 54 next month ), and my preferred daylight bins are Canon IS 10x30 and 18x50. I appreciate the steady image through the Canons, but I'd like to have something better to use at night. The exit pupils ( 3 and 2.8 mm respectively) are not going to do. I know this from experience, owling with them.

So far I have considered:

Zeiss 8x56 Dialyt Classic roofs
Swarovski Habicht 7x42 porro's
Canon 10x42 IS L porro II's
Steiner Discovery 8x44 roofs; open bridge.

The Zeiss Classics are the summit of my budget. Anything more expensive is out of the question, so no big 50/56 mm Swarovski's and 56mm Zeiss FL's.

I'm quite fond of the Canons I own, and I know that image stabilization makes up for what the exit pupil lacks in detail recognition.

I'm wondering how the Steiners perform in very low light.

Anyone like to comment/recommend?

Best regards,

Ronald

I have been thinking about the same sort of bins for watching roosts.
But as I wont use the bins that often or for that long I'd like to get some on the cheap.

Anyone got any suggestions for some inexpensive dusk/night time bins. I was thinking Russian ones maybe? I'm about to look into Yukon ones in particular as I found a good review by a hunter of some 7x50s .

http://www.uttings.com/categories/Optics/Binoculars/Yukon/Futurus7x50Review.pdf

They also make a 10x50.

Anyone got any experience of Yukon bins?

Thanks
Martin

 

[RJM]

I find this interesting because the OEMs specification for low-light performance, the Twilight Factor, would seem to imply the the Canon 18x50mm should stomp all over the other choices for showing you more dusk to dark, providing that you could locate your target in the narrow FoV of course.

I have found this spec to be a reliable predictor of performance while the so-called Relative Brightness specification that directly reflects exit pupil size, tends to be a relatively useless predictor of performance. That said, having a large exit pupil does make a binocular easier and more comfortable to use. But this truism holds no matter the light conditions.

cheers,
Rick

 

[statestat]

If the Steiner Peregrine XPs 8x44 are the same as Discovery I can comment that they are spectacular bins, very bright and have a crisp/detailed view. With the 20mm of eye relief they work great with eye glasses. I compared them to Swaro 8x30 Neu recently and the advantage in brightness was readily noticed at dusk.

 

[KorHaan]

Hello Ronald,

Before commenting on a binocular, I would like to know if you are going to use a tripod or monopod for your viewing. I would think that an exit pupill larger than 6 mm. would not help you, now or in the future.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

Hi Arthur,

I'm not intending to carry a tripod or monopod, I expect to move around a lot, to enhance my luck to find an owl, so the bins will be handheld.

Considering my age, 6 mm will probably suffice for a bin's exit pupil. Problem is, an excellent 8x50 is beyond my budget. Cheaper options are possible, maybe Swaro 7x42 SLC, or for that matter, Swaro Habicht 7x42 porro's.
These have low twilight factors, though, but are easy on the eye.
The Zeiss 8x56 Classic was reviewed with one of the highest light transmission figures in a German test, only slightly below the 8x56 FL's.
That's why I consider the Classic, for its brightness and relatively high twilight factor.

Best regards,

Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

I find this interesting because the OEMs specification for low-light performance, the Twilight Factor, would seem to imply the the Canon 18x50mm should stomp all over the other choices for showing you more dusk to dark, providing that you could locate your target in the narrow FoV of course.

I have found this spec to be a reliable predictor of performance while the so-called Relative Brightness specification that directly reflects exit pupil size, tends to be a relatively useless predictor of performance. That said, having a large exit pupil does make a binocular easier and more comfortable to use. But this truism holds no matter the light conditions.

cheers,
Rick

Hi Rick,

The 18x50 Canons do indeed show very good detail in low light, and even after dark, but the exit pupil is simply too small to easily align my eyes with the exit pupils of the bins. Sometimes when I raise them to my eyes in the dark, I see nothing, and I have to shift them a bit to get a view.

The twilight factor is 30, no other bin reaches that, and for stationary objects they would be fine in providing good detail. But the owls here do tend to fly about most of the time, so following them in their flight would require something much easier on the eye.

Best regards,

Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

I have been thinking about the same sort of bins for watching roosts.
But as I wont use the bins that often or for that long I'd like to get some on the cheap.

Anyone got any suggestions for some inexpensive dusk/night time bins. I was thinking Russian ones maybe? I'm about to look into Yukon ones in particular as I found a good review by a hunter of some 7x50s .

http://www.uttings.com/categories/Optics/Binoculars/Yukon/Futurus7x50Review.pdf

They also make a 10x50.

Anyone got any experience of Yukon bins?

Thanks
Martin

No experience with these, I'm afraid, Martin, but it was a surprising read.
Sometimes you can stumble upon something decent, but mostly in the low price range,

bins give disappointing results after dark. I had some great and cheap € 60 Chinese 10x50 porro's for a while, which were spectacularly sharp in decent daylight, but I couldn't see a thing with them after dark even though the high twilight factor would have to account for reasonably good images, in theory. Bad coatings, I suppose.
But they may not all be that bad, out there.

Best regards,

Ronald

 

[KorHaan]

If the Steiner Peregrine XPs 8x44 are the same as Discovery I can comment that they are spectacular bins, very bright and have a crisp/detailed view. With the 20mm of eye relief they work great with eye glasses. I compared them to Swaro 8x30 Neu recently and the advantage in brightness was readily noticed at dusk.

Hi Statestat,

I'm not sure the XP's are the same as the Discovery's; they seem to be 2 different models, but they look the same ( open bridge, same golden lettering on the housing) and they have the same specs. I couldn't find out what the difference was, but there's a slight price difference.
All very strange.
The reviews I read were about the XP's, I assumed these were called Discovery elsewhere; highly confusing.

I read many good things, and I'm glad you like them so much. One reviewer told that they reminded him of the old Nikon Venturers, but with a wider FOV. That must be spectacular, as I vividly recall how good the Venturers were when I tried them out years ago.
The 5.5 mm exit pupil looks attractive, given my age; the hydrophobic lens coating would be welcome, too.
They range in the price class of € 1140 to €1299 here, considering the 8x44 and the 10x44 price difference.

Certainly within my price range, I would really like to try them in the 8x model.

Best regards,

Ronald

 

[RJM]

Hi Rick,

The 18x50 Canons do indeed show very good detail in low light, and even after dark, but the exit pupil is simply too small to easily align my eyes with the exit pupils of the bins. Sometimes when I raise them to my eyes in the dark, I see nothing, and I have to shift them a bit to get a view.

This seems bizarre. My first thought is that you obviously don't have the IPD set correctly. But if you have it set correctly for daylight use when your pupils are small, then it should be fine at dusk when your eye pupil dilates ~2x larger than the 2mm+ exit pupil of the bino. There may something more at work here. I need to think more.

Still if you find the FoV too restrictive to follow an owl in flight, then it obviosly is not the right choice, but not because it does not reveal more detail/resolution than a lower powered/larger exit pupil bino.

Rick

 

[John Dracon]

Ronald - Obviously the large exit pupil of a 7x50 at night will help with alignment, but what your own pupil expansion is at your age is another matter. It is very difficult to measure the diameters of your own pupils. Your maximum exit pupil with ambient light may be only 5mm. That big exit pupil of the Zeiss 8x56 - 7 mm - may not be used in its entirety.

I had a real jolt with my last eye examination - annually with eye drops. My pupils expanded beyond 7 mm, and that evening I could see well with a 7x50. But by the next evening, I was back to 4mm at most and seeing very little.

Perhaps a good 10x50 would be helpful since magnification does help with items viewed at night. Or the Nikon 12x50 SE may be useful, although it is hardly inexpensive. Good luck with your search.

John

 

[John Dracon]

I miswrote on the previous post. In the third sentence, "Your maximum exit pupil..." should read "Your maximum pupil..."

John

 

[ronh]

There is a large variation about the age median eye pupil. We stargazers over on CN are way tripped out on this interesting bit of physiology, and it is curious indeed, but older night observers seem to have large eye holes. Or maybe all it is, is, being well suited for nighttime observing, they tend to stick with it.

I really like my 7x50 in low light, even though my pupils only go a hair over 6mm. When the light gets really low, you can forget seeing fine detail anyhow, you are just seeing shapes, and there the low power is an advantage. Its kind of hard to explain, but it feels like you have taken a step back, like you must to enjoy some paintings that contain lots of fine brush strokes that simply confuse the issue, and get the real visual message of the view. And the odd visual difficulties of low light being what they are, the fact that the apparent field is not so big just makes it that much easier on the eyes, simply less practically invisible stuff to have to evaluate. And if the owl takes off, you are in for an interesting challenge following him in low light, and he will be easier to keep up with in the wide field.

My Fujinon is good optically but weighs a ton and the IF eyepieces are a pain. I think a Jenoptem 7x50 Porro with the late coatings would be very interesting to own and good to use, and can be had for about $400 if you watch.
Ron

 

[RJM]

The classic 9x63mm might be the best compromise of magnification and aperture to give the very brightest views in a fairly lightweight, ergonomic, handhold-able binocular. Only issue is they tend to have a fairly narrow AFoV.

Rick

 

[Martin Fagg]

No experience with these, I'm afraid, Martin, but it was a surprising read.
Sometimes you can stumble upon something decent, but mostly in the low price range,

bins give disappointing results after dark. I had some great and cheap € 60 Chinese 10x50 porro's for a while, which were spectacularly sharp in decent daylight, but I couldn't see a thing with them after dark even though the high twilight factor would have to account for reasonably good images, in theory. Bad coatings, I suppose.
But they may not all be that bad, out there.

Best regards,

Ronald

Hi Ronald,

you're right, when conditions are poor the expensive bins come into their own. My Meopta 8x32s are very bright for their size but I need something extra at times.
I was thinking about 10x50 or 10x56 porros for their twighlight factor. I am interested in the Yukon brand because I read on here that some of them are based on Carl Zeiss Jena designs which were top class in their day. The Yukon ones use modern coatings on these classic designs of yesteryear so they get good reviews.
They are very low cost though. Only £60-70 per pair. Sounds too cheap to be any good doesn't it?
I am continuing to look into them. I'll post if I find anything interesting. At that price I'm tempted to buy a pair to test. They can always live in the car as back ups if they're only half decent.

Best wishes,
Martiin

 

[PYRTLE]

The Zeiss 8 x 56 classics are going to be the best of the bunch, much favoured by stalkers and hunters in their particular pursuit but given your interest then it does come down to aperture size for low light conditions. I use Zeiss 7 x 42 Dialyts for this purpose. If 56 mm binos are just too large for you then the Swarovski SLC that you mentioned is a great contender as well. Just get the best quality optics that you can afford - they will last the test of time whilst giving you immense enjoyment. To throw another bino but modern waterproof roof prism into the equation, have a look at the 8 x 56 Nikon Monarch. Cheers.

 

[oleaf]

Ronald,

I had a chance to try out a Meopta 8x56... and in the day light it seemed superb. The eye relief was huge and I believe it had a 7mm exit pupil. I wish I had the chance to try at night but it didn't happen. Resolution was also perfect.

I've used my 7x42 Meopta at night for owling and they work fine. The 8x56 Meoptas were as well balanced as the 42's. Oh I wish I had more money!

I'm sure the Zeiss are very nice.

Cheers

 

[CharleyBird]

I'm not sure the XP's are the same as the Discovery's; they seem to be 2 different models, but they look the same ( open bridge, same golden lettering on the housing) and they have the same specs. I couldn't find out what the difference was, but there's a slight price difference.
All very strange.
The reviews I read were about the XP's, I assumed these were called Discovery elsewhere; highly confusing.

As far as I understand the difference, Discoverys in the UK have diopter correction for both eyes, while XPs in the US only have left side diopter correction.
But don't quote me!

 

[statestat]

Seems strange for Steiner to have two models(Peregrine Discovery) so similar. I did get to see an owl (Great Horned) at dusk and could see it quite well, but the cold finally sent me home. To me the Peregrine XPs to have the right balance of eye relief, exit pupil, quality and ergonomics, really worth taking a look, may be the best value out there.

 

[NDhunter]

Korhaan:

I have waited to see what some other have said here. You mentioned night, low light duty, so could check out the Steiner Nighthunters. I had the 10x50's, they are a porro
and are optimized for low light. Steiner has named them right, "Nighthunter".
They are IF, individual focus, and they are as bright as anything out there at 10x, special coatings optimized for low light.
For daytime duty, they will not be as sharp as some better bins, but at night with
dim light you will not be dissapointed.
In Europe, they now have the XP and also a roof in the nighthunter series. But I am
thinking the 8x56, would be very good.

You will not find too many on this forum commenting on these.

Jerry