Despite the initial difficulties I had, the 8x32 SE's I got turn out to be a keeper for me. Thanks everyone for the advice and hand-holding. BF is the best. :t:
Now I wonder if 10x or 12x SE are as good birding bins as the 8x. The most significant factor probably will be if I can hold the 12x SE's steady enough without support. Most of the information I found on this matter was on cloudynights, and the subjective opinions were divided. Some people say the 12x SE's are not much more difficult to hold than the 10x, while others seem to be able to only use the 10x hand-held. I don't know how much that applies to terrestrial viewing, because I think shakes are less noticeable when birding than stargazing. So what's your opinion on the holdability of 10x and 12x SE's? Are 12x SE's much harder to hold than 10x SE's? Are 12x SE's easier to hold than other 12x50 porros, such as the Action Extreme, because of the ergonomics? How about 12x SE's vs. other 10x porros? Thanks.
Ning
Ning,
I've owned two 12x50 SEs and borrowed two 10x42 SEs from friends for weeks at a time so I have some observations I can share with you, YMMV, depending on how steady your hands are.
Bad vibrations.
My hands are probably shakier than average, from what my doctor calls "familial tremors," which get worse with age.
My mom had them, her father had them, and her grandmother had them.
I think it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve drinking too much apple cider and then getting the DTs when they tried to kick the habit.
So I'm more likely to have shakes than you are, but you can back it off from there.
Also, I have found, and others have corroborated, that the steadiness by which you can hold a bin (even 8x) can vary from day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, due to a number of variables.
If you've just eaten or exercised, or if you drank or inhaled stimulants beforehand such as coffee, tea, nicotine, asthma inhalers, or if you are tired or upset, you will get more "bad vibrations".
So try to avoid those things if you can before using your 12x50s hand held.
Ergonomics and Weight. 10x42 SE vs. 12x50 SE.
The 10x SE has excellent ergonomics and it fits my large hands perfectly. However, the bin is relatively lightweight for its size (25 oz., an ounce lighter than my 8x32 LX).
I have found, and others have corroborated (though one "expert" disagreed), that lighter bins make vibrations more noticeable. Steve Ingraham, formerly with Better View Desired, said the same thing.
I hold "these truths to be self-evident". Lighten the counterweights on a telescope mount and watch what happens to the images through the EP.
Obviously, there's a curve here. If you use really heavy bins like the Fuji 10x50 FMT (52 oz.), at first the weight will dampen vibrations, but soon the muscles in your hands and arms will fatigue, causing vibrations to increase.
So even with a well balanced and "just right" weight 10x or 12x bin, resting your arms frequently in between observations is important.
The 12x50 SE's weight is better suited for reducing vibrations (32 oz.), but the extra 2x and longer barrels somewhat negate that advantage.
The 12x50 SE is not as well balanced as the 10x42 model. The larger barrels and objectives make the balance point fall near the seam between the barrels and the prism housing rather than on the prism housing like the 8x and 10x SEs.
So you have to shift your hands toward the objectives, which might not work well for you, depending on how large your hands are. I have large hands, and I still found it more difficult to balance the 12x SE with my palms half off/half on the round prism housings, because the barrels begin to taper at the seam.
As you mentioned, there is a difference in the results you get from using 10x or 12x bins for stargazing and terrestrial use, at least perceptually.
Vibrations are very easy to see while looking at pinpoint stars whereas objects with a larger angular diameter such as trees or even birds don't look as "shaky".
However, that doesn't mean, the "bad vibrations" aren't there, they are just harder to see.
When a friend of mine and I compared my 8x32 SE to his 10x42 SE while reading a sign on a telephone pole transformer about 250 ft. away, we could actually read the print easier with the 8xSE than the 10xSE.
He was standing and I was seated. Although telephone pole transformers are probably not on your "life list," those "micro vibrations" could translate to less feather detail on birds.
If your aim is to ID the bird, the 10x and 12x SE will work just as well as the 8x in this regard, better if the bird is at a long distance.
However, if your aim is to see fine feather detail and subtle field markings, you either have to get closer to the bird with the 8x SE or mount the 10x or 12x SE on a tripod, or find a way to brace yourself (sit in a chair or lean against a tree).
Monopods vs. Tripods.
Once you mount a bin on a monopod and hold it with your hands, your legs become the second and third legs of the "tripod," and your hands become part of the mount.
Shaky hands = shaky mount = shaky monopod = shaky images.
I can use the 10x42 SE on a monopod effectively but I find that, for me, mounting the 12x50 SE on a monopod shows more vibrations than if I'm well braced in a high back chair.
In fact, I find it easier to hold the 12x50 SE steady while lying in a chaise lounge with my arms braced with firm pillows, looking at stars, than I do holding them straight out in front of me while standing, looking at birds.
So what I used to do is either mount the SE on a tripod or use them on the monopod but find a tree to lean against to dampen vibrations. Or use them while seated in a high back chair.
Even if you have shaky hands like me, if your back and head are well supported, it will reduce vibrations.
DOF. 10x42 SE vs. 12x50 SE.
The second sample 12x50 SE I bought, which my friend Steve now owns, has an exceptional close focus of 16.5', the same as the 10x42 SE.
This was useful for comparing their DOF.
I was hoping that this close focus in the 12x SE would give me a leg up on the 8x and 10x SE since I could see more detail at 12x than at 8x and 10x.
While that is true (if I'm well braced or if the bin is mounted on a tripod), the aesthetics of the image were not as pleasing at close distance, because of the shallower DOF, which compressed the image and made the background out of focus behind the bird. IOW, you lose "context".
The 12x SE also has 1* less FOV than the 10x, 2.5* less than the 8x SE, which is more noticeable than you would think for birding, at least at close range.
I remember seeing a couple Cedar Waxwings eating berries in the bushes in my backyard. They are migrant visitors in the fall.
So I took out the 12x SE and looked for them out my window (it was raining outside), and although the bushes were only about 50 ft. away, I couldn't find them!
With their red and yellow markings, I thought they would have been easy to find, but the smaller FOV of the 12x made them illusive.
I took out my 8x SE, and found them almost immediately.
So if your intention is to see more detail in birds at close range with the SE, you can do that, but you have some issues to deal with.
At medium distance and long range, the SE comes into its own.
However, there is another issue to consider for terrestrial use...
Chromatic Aberration. 10x42 SE vs. 12x50 SE.
Steve and I had all there SEs out at the park one day. Some hawks were flying overhead, so I took this opportunity to compare the three SEs while watching hawks.
In the 8x, I could barely ID the red tail on the hawk (it was circling quite high), and I could see no CA on the bird.
In the 10x, I made a positive ID of the red tail, but I noticed some purple fringing around the hawk. Keeping it centered help reduce this.
In the 12x, the red tail was no easier to ID than the 10x, in fact, it was a bit harder, because of the added shakes (I was standing), and the purple fringing was quite noticeable, even distracting.
Conclusion. The 12x50 SE is a superb bin, however, hand held, I found it difficult to use unless well braced or mounted, and my expectations about using it at close range to see more detail on birds and for hawk/buzzard/crow watching was marred by a shallow DOF and increased chromatic aberration.
Since you already have an 8x32 SE, the 10x42 SE would not give you all that much advantage while reducing FOV and DOF.
If your aim is to look at birds at a distance, the 12x50 SE would work better, but I would recommend you mount it on a tall tripod rather than a monopod. If you use it in the field, buy a lightweight carbon fiber tripod so the weight won't be a burden to carry.
Better yet, try a 10x42 EDG, and then save up for one if you like it.
I found the open bridge ergonomics, balance, and "heft" provided steadier images, and therefore more detail hand held, even with my shaky hands, than with the 10x and 12x SEs, and the ED glass reduced CA to the point where I didn't see any while watching hawks and buzzards, as long as I kept them centered.
Great bin, but very expensive.
Brock
