Woodpeckers (1 Viewer)

[Gentoo]

What's going on with the genera picoides and dendrocopos? Here's an article I got from wikipedia. Interesting to note that the Lesser Spotted Woodpecker was moved and is believed most closely related to Downy Woodpecker.

Picoides is a genus of woodpeckers (family Picidae) found primarily in North America. The plumage in most species is predominantly black and white, brown and white in some southern species, with the male often having a red (or yellow) badge. Their bills are straight and chisel-shaped. Although in the four-toed species, the toes normally have a zygodactyl or yoked arrangement while on the ground, one toe can be rotated forward for climbing. Some species in this genus are three-toed. All species in this genus feed mainly on insects.

[edit] Systematics

The genus is in need of revision. Two species which have a somewhat different color pattern, especially on the head and neck - the Striped and the Checkered Woodpecker - have turned out to belong into Veniliornis, a genus most closely related to Picoides. On the other hand, the Smoky-brown Woodpecker (Veniliornis fumigatus) seems to be an early offshoot of Picoides. Its unique coloration (similar to the unrelated Okinawa Woodpecker) in this case would be an adaptation to dense forest habitat, although due to its distinctiveness it is not inconceivable that it belongs into a genus of its own and merely is a case of molecular convergence. The American Three-toed Woodpecker was until recently considered conspecific with the Eurasian one[citation needed], and the Lesser Spotted Woodpecker is often placed in the genus Dendrocopos[citation needed]. Indeed, that genus is sometimes merged into Picoides, but this is neither generally accepted nor well supported.

Analysis of mtDNA COI and Cyt b sequences suggest that Picoides is really three genera (Moore et al., 2006). One is a group of small four-toed species and the Eurasian P. minor, whereas the other group unites the larger species and would include the Smoky-brown Woodpecker. The three-toed species consititute an entirely different lineage closer to some species of Dendrocopos.

All three groups are notable for the high degree of convergent evolution in plumage patterns existing between them (Weibel & Moore, 2005; Moore et al., 2006). There are several pairs of species from different groups which are almost alike; the most notable example are the Downy and Hairy Woodpeckers which are not closely related at all but independently evolved a plumage pattern which is identical down to minor details.

* Small group
o Lesser Spotted Woodpecker, Picoides minor - previously Dendrocopos
o Downy Woodpecker, Picoides pubescens
o Nuttall's Woodpecker, Picoides nuttallii
o Ladder-backed Woodpecker, Picoides scalaris
* Large group
o Red-cockaded Woodpecker, Picoides borealis
o Smoky-brown Woodpecker, Picoides fumigatus
o Hairy Woodpecker, Picoides villosus
o White-headed Woodpecker, Picoides albolarvatus
o Strickland's Woodpecker, Picoides stricklandi
o Arizona Woodpecker, Picoides arizonae
* Three-toed group (Picoides sensu stricto)
o Eurasian Three-toed Woodpecker, Picoides tridactylus
o American Three-toed Woodpecker, Picoides dorsalis
o Black-backed Woodpecker, Picoides arcticus

anyone have any insight?

 

[njlarsen]

Interesting. The SACC web site http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCBaseline05.html, down towards the end has this quote: "to wait for broader rearrangement of Picoides, which consists of at least five lineages worthy of generic recognition, including restoration of Dendrocopos and Dryobates".

It seems that there are other people than whoever authored that Wikipedia page who is looking forward to more data on woodpeckers.

Niels

 

[Gentoo]

I do wonder what they'll do. Thanks for that link. It seems as though the woodpeckers have been overlooked for some time. Wonder what American species might be moved. Could the Harry Woodpecker once again be Dendrocopos villosus?

 

[Daniel Philippe]

You also need to read Laurent's comments:

http://http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop263.html

That was in June 2007

Daniel

 

[Daniel Philippe]

The link does not seem to work.

Go there first and scroll down to proposal 263:

http://http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCproproster.html

If you click on click, you will find Laurent's comments.

Daniel

 

[l_raty]

The link does not seem to work.

"http://http://"...

The link to the proposal is
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop263.html
The link to my text is
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop263Raty.html

(Note that this text was not initially intended as a comment over the SACC proposal. The larger and larger number of publications addressing this group was giving me a hard time to keep a reasonably clear and complete picture, so at some point I started summarising all of them in a .doc file, updating it every time a new study appeared in press. I just sent this file to Van when the proposal came out.)

Best,
Laurent -

 

[Daniel Philippe]

Sorry for not facilitating the access to your text Laurent, but I think a gem is better appreciated after a little search

By the way, I guess Dendrocopos auriceps, dorae, cathpharius and darjellensis have never been sequenced, have they ?

Daniel

 

[l_raty]

By the way, I guess Dendrocopos auriceps, dorae, cathpharius and darjellensis have never been sequenced, have they ?

If they have been sequenced, the sequences are not published.

L -

 

[Gentoo]

Looks like the genus Dendrocopos may leave us.

http://bio.wayne.edu/profhtml/moore/PUBLICATIONS/MooreEtal2006Veniliornis.pdf

Note all are in Picoides. Also the Lesser Spotted Woodpecker is in the North American group.

 

[l_raty]

Note all are in Picoides.

Yes, but this does not reflect any new finding. They just used the taxonomy proposed by Short in 1971, in which Picoides and Dendrocopos were merged in a single genus.
Recent data indicate unambiguously that Picoides + Dendrocopos + Dendropicos + Veniliornis + Sapheopipo form a clade. Picoides Lacépède, 1799 (type species tridactylus) and Dendrocopos Koch, 1816 (type species major) are the two oldest generic names with a type species falling in this clade. The basalmost subdivision in the clade is between two subclades that each include the type species of one of these two generic names.
Given this, the only possible way to have Dendrocopos leaving us would be to merge the entire clade (five currently recognized genera, more than 60 species) in a huge genus Picoides.

Also the Lesser Spotted Woodpecker is in the North American group.

Yes, but unless you do the complete merging as above, it's the four-toed N-American group that definitely does not belong in Picoides. These birds are closer to the type species of Dendrocopos than to that of Picoides.

L -

 

[Gentoo]

Yes, but unless you do the complete merging as above, it's the four-toed N-American group that definitely does not belong in Picoides. These birds are closer to the type species of Dendrocopos than to that of Picoides.

This I definitely agree with. I think a few others out there do too as I've seen Hairy, Downy and I think Nuttall's listed as Dendrocopos at least a few times. On the other hand, I saw one Japanese list that had Great Spotted as Picoides major.

 

[l_raty]

I think a few others out there do too as I've seen Hairy, Downy and I think Nuttall's listed as Dendrocopos at least a few times.

This is actually a possibility, and could solve some of the problems associated to the current taxonomy of the group. But the genetic data indicate that this would also force the transfer of all of the species currently in Veniliornis to Dendrocopos - and I get the feeling that many would prefer to avoid this.

(On balance, whether this can indeed be avoided without recognizing an unreasonable plethora of very small and almost undifferentiated additional genera, is unclear - and the latter would not be desirable either. Whether Veniliornis remains a very useful and meaningful genus in its most recent circumscription - without fumigatus, but with lignarius and mixtus [not to mention the possibility that borealis might finally have to follow as well] - could also be questioned. The main morphological character separating Veniliornis from American "four-toed Picoides" used to be their non-pied plumage, that was (wrongly...) given a lot of evolutionary importance; with two pied species transfered to Veniliornis and one brown species transfered to the "four-toed Picoides", this difference is now lost.)

Beware also that if you run across an author treating the N-American four-toed species as members of Dendrocopos, this (again) may be a historical, rather than a new treatment. Before Short suggested merging the two genera (1971), Picoides used to be restricted to the three-toed group only (then two species: three-toed and black-backed), and Dendrocopos used to encompass all the four-toed American species currently in Picoides. This treatment was still used, e.g., by Voous in his List of recent Holarctic birds species.

Cheers,
L -

 

[Xenospiza]

Sapheopipo is really not much more than a very dark White-backed Woodpecker and could well be merged with Dendrocopos before any other major work is undertaken...

 

[l_raty]

Yes - Sapheopipo appears indeed very close to leucotos, and leucotos itself is clearly closer to major (the type of Dendrocopos) than to anything placed in another genus. So this move would appear very safe (at least as long as the final decision is not to place everything in Picoides...).

The genetic data also show quite clearly that the three-toed group (tridactylus-dorsalis and arcticus) and the small white-vented Dendrocopos group (temminckii, moluccensis, canicapillus, and kizuki; perhaps also obsoletus) both fall outside of the main cluster (that includes the remaining of Dendrocopos, Sapheopipo, Dendropicos, the American four-toed Picoides, and Veniliornis). Thus it could also be reasonably safe to move the small white-vented Dendrocopos (at least the Asian ones) outside Dendrocopos.

The real, big problems arise when you want to subdivide the main cluster. (All of the non-Dendrocopos groups in this cluster appear to be embedded within Dendrocopos, even though a number of Dendrocopos species have never been sampled.)

 

[Gentoo]

I am learning so much in this thread and still trying to take it all in.

So let me get this straight; It's possible that Dendrocopos could be resurrected and include at least some if not all NA species?

Also what about the authorities who place other species like the Great Spotted in Picoides?

 

[Gentoo]

Here are some recent sites that have Great Spotted Woodpecker as Picoides

http://www.springerlink.com/content/c773338768802182/

http://app.isis.org/abstracts/Abs59737.asp

 

[l_raty]

So let me get this straight; It's possible that Dendrocopos could be resurrected and include at least some if not all NA species?

Historically, the circumscriptions of Dendrocopos and Picoides has changed as follows:
- Classical pre-1971 treatment : Picoides = three-toed group only; Dendrocopos = all Eurasian and American four-toed pied species.
- 1971 : Lester Short argued that America was colonized only once by the pied woodpeckers, and that the North-American four-toed species are the sister group of the three-toed group. Under this hypothesis, the former broad Dendrocopos concept was paraphyletic. To solve this problem, Short proposed to merge the two genera into Picoides.
This was quite widely followed, and is still followed by some authorities.
- 1977 : Ouellet, although accepting Short's conclusion that the N-American four-toed species are sister to the three-toed group, preferred not to sink Dendrocopos entirely in Picoides. He retained this generic name for the Eurasian four-toed pied species, while placing the American four-toed species together with the three-toed group in Picoides.
This is the most widely accepted treatment nowadays (e.g., all major world checklists).

Thus, in a sense, Dendrocopos was already "resurrected", by Ouellet, 32 years ago.

Genetic data now show unambiguously that Short was wrong from the beginning - the N-American four-toed species clearly do not appear closer to the three-toed group than to (the type species of) Dendrocopos.

However, they also show that returning to the formerly broader circumscription of Dendrocopos is not an option either, because this concept of Dendrocopos is extensively paraphyletic, although not at all for the reason that Short had proposed:
- It includes a quite divergent group of small Asian species (that may also include an African species). This group (instead of the N-American four-toed group) may be closer to the three-toed group.
- The monotypic genus Sapheopipo (placed in a different tribe by Short) is embedded within it (see above: Sapheopipo noguchii appears to be the sister species of Dendrocopos leucotos).
- the Neotropical genus Veniliornis (placed in a third tribe by Short) is embedded within it (and quite possibly even embedded within the American four-toed "Picoides").
- the African genus Dendropicos is apparently also embedded within it (although this has up to now only been showed by a single study).

(Short's hypotheses were very extensively based on plumage coloration - thus, he placed all the pied species together and excluded all the non-pied species from that group. This, in particular, appears to have been wrong all the way - in fact, plumage color appears rather labile, and it seems that pied birds have reverted to non-pied plumages on a number of occasions, possibly as a consequence of inhabiting deep humid tropical or sub-tropical forests [Gloger's rule].)

I live in a country where three Dendrocopos species occur.
The first one is the type of the genus (major). The second is minor, and appears evolutionarily closer to the American four-toed lineages (four-toed "Picoides" and Veniliornis) than to the first one. The third is medius, and was found closer to the Afrotropical Dendropicos than to the previous two by the only genetic study to have included it... :eek!:

 

[Gentoo]

Wow this is fascinating truly fascinating. I guess time will tell. We all know how fluid the AOU can be when it comes to moving birds and genera around.

Well in my US state, there are five or six species of this group; villosus, peubescens, nuttalli, albolarvatus, scalaris, and at least one of the three-toed species, arcticus. I think possibly maybe even trydactilus occurs in a very small area (sorry the AOU as far as I know has not split Three-Toed Woodpecker).

So what are we looking at here? Do all but the three-toed ones in my region (California) belong to the same clade? Or are any of these closer to perhaps veniliornis?

 

[Richard Klim]

Well in my US state, there are five or six species of this group; villosus, peubescens, nuttalli, albolarvatus, scalaris, and at least one of the three-toed species, arcticus. I think possibly maybe even trydactilus occurs in a very small area (sorry the AOU as far as I know has not split Three-Toed Woodpecker).

Gentoo,

AOU did split P tridactylus, in 2003:
http://www.aou.org/checklist/suppl/AOU_checklist_suppl_44.pdf (p927)

Richard

 

[Gentoo]

Wow how did I miss that? Thanks.