wolves now living in south eastern ontario (1 Viewer)

[scuba0095]

Hello

I am from Kingston Ontario and there have been NUMEROUS reports of wolves living here over the years. Many of the reports are actually proven to be eastern coyotes which have some wold DNA in them look a bit wolf like and are often much larger then usual coyotes.


However some reports have been found to be proven wolves.


Just this feb a very close friend of mine and some people caught a wolf that was trapped on the ice not even 15 mins outside my citY! At first when they called the wildlife rescue they claimed it was probably a dog or a coyote and that wolves did not live around here but they were shocked to find out when they arrivied at the scene it was a HEALthy adult grey wolf they estimated at about 100 pounds! It took them 2 hours to rescue the poor animal off the ice but in the the wolf got to land safe.

I was just so shocked after hearing this because that are is so close to the city what on earth would a wolf be doing here? There was a crowd of people including the police all testified it was nothing other then a wolf!


Has anyone else heard of wolves in this area? Recently are they starting to migrate back down here from up north? I Just dont get what they would eat as areas so populated with people dont seem to hold enough prey species for a very large predator such as a wolf.


SS

 

[harry eales]

Hello

I am from Kingston Ontario and there have been NUMEROUS reports of wolves living here over the years. Many of the reports are actually proven to be eastern coyotes which have some wold DNA in them look a bit wolf like and are often much larger then usual coyotes.


However some reports have been found to be proven wolves.


Just this feb a very close friend of mine and some people caught a wolf that was trapped on the ice not even 15 mins outside my citY! At first when they called the wildlife rescue they claimed it was probably a dog or a coyote and that wolves did not live around here but they were shocked to find out when they arrivied at the scene it was a HEALthy adult grey wolf they estimated at about 100 pounds! It took them 2 hours to rescue the poor animal off the ice but in the the wolf got to land safe.

I was just so shocked after hearing this because that are is so close to the city what on earth would a wolf be doing here? There was a crowd of people including the police all testified it was nothing other then a wolf!


Has anyone else heard of wolves in this area? Recently are they starting to migrate back down here from up north? I Just dont get what they would eat as areas so populated with people dont seem to hold enough prey species for a very large predator such as a wolf.


SS

It's not impossible that in some areas Wolves may become urbanised as have Foxes and Bears. Cats and small dogs may fall as prey, as will Rabbits, and similar sized animals, they will also eat mice and other small rodents.

Despite having a very bad reputation, there is not one single verifiable record from anywhere in the world of a Wolf attacking a 'fit' human being. They may feed off a severely injured person or dead body, but even that's yet to be proven.

The Wolf like any other animal has its part to play in the great scheme of things. Man is by far the worse predator. I have little doubt that the ill informed and the panic merchants will soon be offering a 'Bounty' for every one that is shot. That is sad, but it's human nature to destroy things without giving it a thought.

Generations of children have been brought up on tales of the 'Big Bad Wolf'. It's a load of rubbish, and people really do need to be re-educated.

Harry

 

[Forest Knights]

It's not impossible that in some areas Wolves may become urbanised as have Foxes and Bears. Cats and small dogs may fall as prey, as will Rabbits, and similar sized animals, they will also eat mice and other small rodents.

Despite having a very bad reputation, there is not one single verifiable record from anywhere in the world of a Wolf attacking a 'fit' human being. They may feed off a severely injured person or dead body, but even that's yet to be proven.

The Wolf like any other animal has its part to play in the great scheme of things. Man is by far the worse predator. I have little doubt that the ill informed and the panic merchants will soon be offering a 'Bounty' for every one that is shot. That is sad, but it's human nature to destroy things without giving it a thought.

Generations of children have been brought up on tales of the 'Big Bad Wolf'. It's a load of rubbish, and people really do need to be re-educated.

Harry

oh how i wish we in blighty were in a position to post about wolves near my town. The Uk ecosystem lacks large carnivores these days. Although with such a high density of humans its unlikely there could ever be a successful reintroduction as has been discussed on here before.

My sister in law lives in Deep River and occasionaly hears them.

 

[jurek]

Wolves can live close to humans. In Europe, most famous is wolf pack from outskirts of big city of Brasov, Romania, which for several years was thought by locals to be stray dogs. Elsewhere, scavenging on rubbish dumps or travelling on roads at night is normal.

If there is lots of wild prey and domestic animals are kept under supervision at night, wolves will live near people for years without much problem.

 

[Evanji Axu]

OMG! My favorite animals! Sadly, there are no wolves where we lives, but the nearby Living Museum has red wolves. They have a baby and she is so cute :<

 

[DavidP]

It's not impossible that in some areas Wolves may become urbanised as have Foxes and Bears. Cats and small dogs may fall as prey, as will Rabbits, and similar sized animals, they will also eat mice and other small rodents.

Thats already pretty much the case in southern California but with coyotes which will take cats and dogs. When I moved into my last house a few days before a mountain lion had a go at an alsatian in the house down the road and thats in a built up area near the edge of the LA conurbation (18 million people). Question of houses moving into their habitat but coyotes have definitely adapted and do quite well off the local diet of cats and dogs.
Go to a concert at the Hollywood bowl and if a police siren sounds in the interval you'll often hear the coyotes answer back and thats pretty urban albeit with the Santa Monica mountains in the backdrop.

 

[Atricapilla]

Wolves can live close to humans. In Europe, most famous is wolf pack from outskirts of big city of Brasov, Romania, which for several years was thought by locals to be stray dogs. Elsewhere, scavenging on rubbish dumps or travelling on roads at night is normal.

If there is lots of wild prey and domestic animals are kept under supervision at night, wolves will live near people for years without much problem.

Also reports of wolves here in Turkey but in the more mountainous isloated areas,also Golden Jackal.

 

[horse_rider]

This is a very late post, but I've just joined this forum and noticed this thread. I also live in Kingston - just on the edge of Odessa. Have a 72 acre farm where we have coyotes. But a few times I've seen a lone fellow on my trails and I'm pretty sure from his size and square face that he is indeed a wolf. We are quite at ease with each other. I stop to watch him whenever I see him, and he will turn and assess me for a while... and then will turn and melt into the brush. It always makes my day to know he lives freely on my property... even though the bunnies may not be as happy about it. We also have fox, deer, and the usual smaller mammals - makes for lovely morning walks. And, yes, I know how lucky I am. )

 

[Robert / Seattle]

I think it reasonable to assume that as our enlightenment and appreciation towards predators continues, and the "shoot 'em on site" reaction diminishes, then it's innevitable that highly intelligent and adaptive animals like wolves will find their way back to any productive habitat. What will be interesting to note is how this natural recovery and expansion will affect the Eastern Coyote, a population that only succeeded in it's colonization of the East because of the temporary absence of the wolf.

 

[BrightonBirder]

With respect to "wolves" near Kingston, Ontario remember that the Frontenac Axis comes very close to town and the axis is essentially very wild and unpopulated compared to the flatter adjoining land. That being said it would take one cagey animal to be that far south and not dead. Remember other than Algonquin it is essentially open season on wolves in southern Ontario.

I do have my doubts that it was a wolf, many people who claim to know wolves have no idea what a wolf looks like. The animal at Odessa is most likely a coydog. Very few pure coyotes exist and heavy square faced animals are hybrids of large domestic dogs and coyotes/coydogs.

 

[scuba0095]

What the previous poster saw was indeed a wolf

Many of these animals we see are algonquin eastern wolves which are a seperate species which kinda look like a mix between a coyote and a wolf

These interbreed with coytoes and do NOT KILL coyotes and distroy the coyote population the way grey/timber wolves do


Eastern Algonquin wolves MATe with our eastern coyotes and form packs with them

Just recently we saw an animal that was EXTREMLY wolf like held its tail likea wolf and at first i thought it was a big german shepherd till i got a closer look

it was no coyote and i have been reading about & studying wolves & coyotes for 10 years

the tricky part is the coyotes wolves mix around here so its producing its own kind of wild dog

 

[scuba0095]

hello i would like to mention that frontenac provincial park is just OUtside of kingston 20min drive) and theirs enough land around and in it to easily sustain a wolf pack.

I also have to agree many NON FARmers see a wolf they do not think they have seen the devil (like a few decades ago) and actually just watch the wolf instead of trying to kill it


Id also like to add that coydogs are EXTREMLy rare and that wolf/coyotes in eastern ontario are much more common according to studyies

 

[BrightonBirder]

Coydogs are the norm in populated areas of southern Ontario. Wolves are extremely rare over most of the area and pure Coyotes are becoming rarer. I don't know what studies you are referring to but I would love to see them as I have seen coydogs far out numbering "pure" coyotes throughout southern Ontario. I have even had "experienced" hunters bring me skulls and photos of supposed wolves that show rostrums and dentation of domesticated dogs.

 

[scuba0095]

hello here are a few ive read that talk about this

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/fef373e9d

http://canidae.ca/LYCAON.HTM

http://www.apnmag.com/summer_2006/wolves.php

http://www.gov.ns.ca/natr/wildlife/conserva/07-04-6.htm

http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

http://home.acadia.net/mainewolf/news.html


And here are some articles that state that coydogs are really rare and more urgan legend

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/1647/P40/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coydog
http://www.apetsblog.com/pets-journal/coydog-coyote-dog-hybrid.htm

 

[scuba0095]

I would also like to add that not long ago I recieved an e mail (response to my questions) from http://www.wolvesontario.org/ and they stated that chances on coydogs existing anywhere in ontario are extremly remote and that many of the wild canines we are seeing have some wolf blood in them some having more or less then others. I was told pure coyotes exist in some secluded areas like in torontos high park but most othe rural ones have some wolf blood in them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontenac_Provincial_Park

According to wikipedia frontenac provinal park supports a native wolf population

 

[BrightonBirder]

Your links do not provide evidence of Wolves in the Kingston area. Wikipedia is hardly a good source. The Frontenac Park website does not mention wolves (but does coyotes) and no credible website I can find mentions current distribution of Wolves south of Algonguin Park and the adjoining townships.

It make sense that "many of the wild canines we are seeing have some wolf blood " as many domestic dogs had some wolf background. High Park is anything but isolated, and once again I would say coydogs are very common in southern Ontario.

Google wolf distibution in Ontario and see what you find..

 

[scuba0095]

can you provide any proof as coydogs being common in southern ontario? I have provided many links that says it is extremly RARE IN THE WILD and have yet to see a single source saying they are common anywhere. Why is kingston so special?

So correct me if i am wrong but the EASTERN coyotes in New brunswick, New England, Maine, Adorondacs, vermont, and algonquin park have all been proven from extensive DNA testing to NOT be coydogs and are in fact wolf/coyote hybirds but we special as we are in southern ontario have coydogs? You can understand how hard this is to believe right?

 

[BrightonBirder]

Many of your links have no scientific validity and some are nothing but ravings of lunatics; but you are correct I have given no scientific studies. The example of Algonquin is somewhat different from the populated areas of Ontario.

As for links google Coydogs/Ontario and look for yourself. I believe you will find CPAWS as the first link that comes up and it mentions coydogs.

My personal experience is with naturalists, biologists, paleontologists, mammalogists and animal control people. Perhaps I should have asked for scientific proof years ago, but now I will start digging.

Wether you believe in coydogs or not I do hope you now realize that no wolves are roaming anywhere near Kingston unless one has roamed from Algonquin area south. Check this link http://www.speciesatrisk.gc.ca/search/speciesDetails_e.cfm?SpeciesID=608

 

[Chris Benesh]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic. Clearly there is a lot I need to learn about canids in southeastern Canada. Thanks to your links and a lot of Google searching, I have learned a lot more than I knew this morning. A few sources that seemed particularly useful were the following:

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/ebr/wolves/backgrounder.pdf
http://ohioline.osu.edu/b929/pdf/b929.pdf
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=00....0.CO;2-Y&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
http://www.science.smith.edu/departments/Biology/VHAYSSEN/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-079-01-0001.pdf

There are a variety of things that become clear from wading through a lot of what has been written.

1. Coydogs, do in fact, exist. What is less clear is their exact status in the wild. Virtually everything I have read about them has its origin in the realm of captively bred animals. I can find virtually no reference to anything confirming well established wild populations of coydogs. Fiona Reid writes in her Coyote account in Peterson's Mammals of North America "Coydogs are often reported in the Northeast. Such crosses are possible and do result in viable offspring, but most pups die early. Close analysis of 200 animals suspected to be Coydogs showed that most were either dogs or Coyotes, only a very few were hybrids. The reproductive cycles of the two species are somewhat incompatible: male Coyotes seldom mate with female dogs; female Coyotes can mate with male dogs, but these females are left to raise the pups alone." Various online sources seem to support the scarcity of wild dog x coyote hybrids.

2. Coyote x Wolf hybrids occur in southern Ontario. From the Ontario study cited above, "coyotes observed in the wild are sometimes confused with eastern wolves (C. lycaon). Confusion is heightened by the extensive occurrence of hybridization between eastern wolves and coyotes in Eastern Ontario." The same paper also states, "In the more settled eastern U.S. and southern Ontario, land clearing and the burgeoning human population led also to the decline of the eastern wolf, but at the same time facilitated the eastward expansion of the coyote. The first coyotes seem to have entered western Ontario at the beginning of the 20th century. DNA profiles of coyotes in Ontario today (also called “brush wolves” or “tweed wolves”) indicate they are actually hybrids of eastern wolves and coyotes. They have now spread eastward into all of the New England states, and the Maritime Provinces including Newfoundland." That suggests that it is possible or maybe even quite likely that most of the wolf-like canids seen south of Algonquin are hybrid wolf-coyotes, rather than coydogs. These would also be somewhat more wolf-like than western Coyotes.

3. The identification of wild canids is not always straightforward. Telling a Gray Wolf from a western Coyote may not be too challenging, but if Fiona Reid's illustrations of Canis lycaon are accurate, than it is much more similar to a Coyote than Canis lupus. I guess this is not surprising since there is some level of hybridization occurring between lycaon and latrans.

4. Wolf dispersal has been documented to occur from animals departing from the southeast portion of Algonquin Park. It is theoretically possible for animals to stray south and east of the park on infrequent occasion, though how far and how frequently is anyone's guess.

In short, it seems like there are elements of truth to what both of you have said. There are definitely Coyotes with Wolf genes (a coyote in wolf's clothing ) in southern Ontario, and quite possibly some feral coydogs (perhaps that have gotten away from breeders) there too. And maybe, just maybe, the odd Eastern Timber Wolf C. lycaon makes it close too from time to time. It would be great to hear from either of you if you happen to dig up any additional information on the status of any of these Canis in your backyards, or anything that contradicts the above.

Chris

 

[scuba0095]

hello

thanks for your response chris

I am trying to find info all i can find is information regarding coyotes being coywolves here in ontario and still cannot find any proof of wild coydogs existing anywhere other then captivity


question for brightenbirder have some of the wild canines you have seen around southern ontario been large formitable looking creatures? looking like the size of a large dog?