WHEN IS A PEWIT NOT A PEWIT? (1 Viewer)

[paranoid numanoid]

I'm looking into the etymology of puit, or puet, later pewit as a mainly Norfolk names for the black-headed gull. I have found some background on their eggs and young being harvested at colonies like Scoulton, and sold on the market (perhaps as lapwing or plovers' eggs?) Also, Alfred Newton ascribes the name to the call, which I'm not convinced by, it just doesn't ring true.

Puits in French is a well or pit, perhaps like a flooded gravel pit which might host a colony, giving its name to the bird. There's an Etang des Puits in France which may link the pit and the pewit, but I'm just not sure. Any leads or thoughts?

 

[dantheman]

Immediate question is where does Peewit come into this, if at all?!! (Peewit = Lapwing)

 

[paranoid numanoid]

Immediate question is where does Peewit come into this, if at all?!! (Peewit = Lapwing)

Yes that's my question really, the lapwing's call does sound like peewit (or dix-huit if you're French!!) but the blackheaded gull's just doesn't. So where does it come from?
I'm sure it's from the French somewhere down the line but I may be wrong. There's a breton word pivinc but it alludes to another gull, I think the common gull (or sea-mew as it was known.) Could be a celtic connection there.

 

[James Jobling]

I agree that the Black-headed Gull doesn't call 'pewit.' The names Pewit, Pewit Gull and Puit perhaps refer to the gull's association with the Lapwing or Peewit in wetland habitats. I can find nothing in Cabard & Chauvet, 2003, L'étymologie des noms d'oiseaux, regarding a French connection.

 

[dantheman]

Yes that's my question really, the lapwing's call does sound like peewit (or dix-huit if you're French!!) but the blackheaded gull's just doesn't. So where does it come from?
I'm sure it's from the French somewhere down the line but I may be wrong. There's a breton word pivinc but it alludes to another gull, I think the common gull (or sea-mew as it was known.) Could be a celtic connection there.

What about the sound the chicks make? That would be heard from a colony if eggs were being collected. (Not sure about BH Gull specifically, but sure some species making cute piping calls ... )

??

(Googling online gives begging Klee-ow call for some gulls.)

 

[paranoid numanoid]

I agree that the Black-headed Gull doesn't call 'pewit.' The names Pewit, Pewit Gull and Puit perhaps refer to the gull's association with the Lapwing or Peewit in wetland habitats. I can find nothing in Cabard & Chauvet, 2003, L'étymologie des noms d'oiseaux, regarding a French connection.

Interesting, thank you James. May be a blind alley with the French connection, but there is still the "pivinc" breton clue....

I do think the marsh habitat is part of the "pewit" association, but I'm thinking the gull's eggs (which are still commercially collected under licence and still fetch a good price in London restaurants!!) are the link (maybe they were the "poor man's plover eggs" back in the day when the name was coined).

 

[paranoid numanoid]

What about the sound the chicks make? That would be heard from a colony if eggs were being collected. (Not sure about BH Gull specifically, but sure some species making cute piping calls ... )

??

(Googling online gives begging Klee-ow call for some gulls.)

That's a good lead, I never thought of that. It may well be that the young (which were also harvested for the table) made a pewit-like sound!

 

[dantheman]

That's a good lead, I never thought of that. It may well be that the young (which were also harvested for the table) made a pewit-like sound!

Listening on xeno canto some of the calls of nestlings I would write down as 'puit' perhaps.... (Also similar to the word 'pullet' for a young chicken - word used for other food species????)


It's been a long time since I've been near a colony of Black-headed Gulls and can't recall if species such as Lapwing commonly breed around the fringes (either helping protect each other from predators as can be the case sometimes). If so Lapwings dive bombing anyone venturing into the colony would perhaps be memorable? (And 'Peewit' is the alarm call of Lapwing in such circumstances?)

 

[paranoid numanoid]

Listening on xeno canto some of the calls of nestlings I would write down as 'puit' perhaps.... (Also similar to the word 'pullet' for a young chicken - word used for other food species????)


It's been a long time since I've been near a colony of Black-headed Gulls and can't recall if species such as Lapwing commonly breed around the fringes (either helping protect each other from predators as can be the case sometimes). If so Lapwings dive bombing anyone venturing into the colony would perhaps be memorable? (And 'Peewit' is the alarm call of Lapwing in such circumstances?)

I think you're very close to the truth of it here, "pullet" was often reduced to "poot" or "pou" (Swainson and Swann's provincial English names, Rolland's French provincial names) but why would this "chick" word only be related to the BHG and not to other harvested chicks? Yes the call of the young is a goer too, a pullet that squeaked "pu-it" would have two reasons to have a similar name. But the adults were also so-called. There's the link with lapwings too which feels right, although I saw a Norfolk publication which quoted a local insisiting the word was NOT pewit, but puit or puet, so that's quite precise and draws a fine line between the two species.
Thank you for your original thoughts on this, Dan!

CHARLES SWAINSON: PROVINCIAL NAMES AND FOLKLORE OF BRITISH BIRDS, 1885; H KIRKE SWANN, DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH AND FOLK-NAMES OF BRITISH BIRDS, ETC (1913); ROLLAND: FAUNE ... (1879)

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

I assume you've seen and read this book (from 1850)?

We retain for this bird the name of Pewit Gull, one of its provincial designations, ...

And/or, Willughby's Ornithologiae libri tres, ... (from 1676), which incl.; "The Pewit or Black-cap, ..." (here):

Hujus etiam generis ſunt quas Anglicè Pewits appellant, quæ ingenti numero Norburiæ Comitatus Staffordienſis quotannis nidificant & pariunt, in inſula parva medio in ſtagno ſeu piſcina in agris D. Skrimſhew, triginta minimùm milliaribus à mari remotâ.

Google translate:

Also of this kind [Gulls] are those which in English call Pewits, which each year nest and lay eggs in the immense number in the County of Norbury, in Staffordshire, on a small island in the middle of a lake, or in the fields of Mr. Skrimshew, at least thirty miles distant from the sea.

To me, it looks like you ought to search for the origin in about Staffordshire ...

Good luck finding the very First Pewit (or Puit, alt. Puet) Gull.

Björn

PS. Not to confuse with the following French Puit/Puet Non-Gulls (not even Lapwings!); here, alt. here or here.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Yes that's my question really, the lapwing's call does sound like peewit (or dix-huit if you're French!!) but the blackheaded gull's just doesn't. So where does it come from?
I'm sure it's from the French somewhere down the line but I may be wrong. There's a breton word pivinc but it alludes to another gull, I think the common gull (or sea-mew as it was known.) Could be a celtic connection there.

I had always thought the name to be onomatopoeaic?

 

[Farnboro John]

I assume you've seen and read this book (from 1850)?


And/or, Willughby's Ornithologiae libri tres, ... (from 1676), which incl.; "The Pewit or Black-cap, ..." (here):

Google translate:


To me, it looks like you ought to search for the origin in about Staffordshire ...

Good luck finding the very First Pewit (or Puit, alt. Puet) Gull.

Björn

PS. Not to confuse with the following French Puit/Puet Non-Gulls (not even Lapwings!); here, alt. here or here.

Interesting, but perhaps one ought to mention that visually a Lapwing (or Peewit) has a black cap whereas a Black-headed Gull (or Pewit) has a whole black head (that is actually brown). And that locally to me, Lapwings in recent times have bred on islands in gravel pits.

I might also warn that if anyone says some of these things cannot be taken too literally then I would say that means they should not be taken at all: that the inaccuracy should be a touchstone for binning them as evidence. After all, gunning stuff down has enabled accurate physical description for far longer than we have had an agreed mechanism for phonetic rendering, so inaccurate physical description should trump supposed audio description.

John

 

[paranoid numanoid]

I had always thought the name to be onomatopoeaic?

Hi Andy, I'm sure pewit is an onomatopoeic rendition of the lapwing's call. But the mystery for me is : how did the black-headed gull come to be called a puit, puet or pewit, (in older literature) when its call sounds nothing like that? Its name to me is far from onomatopoeic, so there must have been some other impetus to the coining of that name.

 

[paranoid numanoid]

I assume you've seen and read this book (from 1850)?


And/or, Willughby's Ornithologiae libri tres, ... (from 1676), which incl.; "The Pewit or Black-cap, ..." (here):

Google translate:


To me, it looks like you ought to search for the origin in about Staffordshire ...

Good luck finding the very First Pewit (or Puit, alt. Puet) Gull.

Björn

PS. Not to confuse with the following French Puit/Puet Non-Gulls (not even Lapwings!); here, alt. here or here.

Fantastic response, Bjorn! Many thanks for taking the time to dig out these important sources. I'm working my way through Buffon now.
Almost every old description links the gull to the plover through the marketing of eggs, so that's certainly a big clue. I'm also intrigued by the Celtic Breton "pivinc" name which may have bled into Cornish dialect, and perhaps more widely. Dantheman's suggestions re: the chick's call, and James' general linking of their marshy breeding areas, may all have contributed to the coining and evolution of the name.

Michael

 

[paranoid numanoid]

Interesting, but perhaps one ought to mention that visually a Lapwing (or Peewit) has a black cap whereas a Black-headed Gull (or Pewit) has a whole black head (that is actually brown). And that locally to me, Lapwings in recent times have bred on islands in gravel pits.

I might also warn that if anyone says some of these things cannot be taken too literally then I would say that means they should not be taken at all: that the inaccuracy should be a touchstone for binning them as evidence. After all, gunning stuff down has enabled accurate physical description for far longer than we have had an agreed mechanism for phonetic rendering, so inaccurate physical description should trump supposed audio description.

John

Hi John, I take your point about the breeding sites being in many cases very similar, and as James has suggested this may have been a factor in linking the species with a common provincial name, (by which I mean a provincial name they have in common).
The gull was described very early (Turner, 1544) as the "semaw with a blak cop", (in Greek Cepphus), which ("cop") was a word meaning "head" if I'm not mistaken; I'm sure "cap" derives from the same source. Anyway a lapwing's distinctive features are its call, crest, mode of flying, mode of distracting from the nest, delicacy of eggs etc.
I'm sure gunning down the birds and describing them feather by feather has served science, (I've been reading a lot of this recently) but in my view it has also hindered our understanding, as even the best descriptions in Willughby and Ray for example don't give us an idea of what the bird looks like in the field, and also resulted in many juvenile gulls, birds of prey and even starlings being named as separate species relatively recently (I'm looking at Montagu's Dictionary, (1831 edition). And in contrast the calls of familiar birds described by ancient authors have remained recognisably the same for many hundreds of years.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Maybe relevant, or not, I just can't tell, but the very first reference in Willughby's work, of 1676, see post #10, is (the non-binary/pre-1758): "Larus cinereus Ornithologi Aldrov. p.73 ... " which takes us to Aldrovandi's Ornithologiae (1637), here, (and the Plate of the Bird itself on page 76, here).

Looks like various names (of 'Sea-gulls') are dealt with on page 72, below: "DE LARIS CINEREIS. [Plural: The Grey(-backed) Gulls] Cap. VI. SYNONYMA" (in text, all in Latin), for example:

... Aristotelı ... Latinis ... Italis ... Germanis ſuperioribus Meb, Mevv, Mieſz, Heluetijs priuatim Holbrot, Holbruder, ... ... inferioribus Germanis Cockmaeu, vel Maeu, Anglis ſecob, ſeegell. Turcis Baharè ...

But no Pewit/Puit/Puet in sight (at least not as far as I can tell, or understand) ... to me it does look like it's truly an old provincial (English?) designation, just like Henry Leonard Meyer stated (in the mid-1800s).

Björn

PS. I Cannot help noticing the similarity between the German "Meb, Mevv", and "Miesz" with both the English epithet Mew Gull and the Swedish name mås (måsar in plural) – originating in mási (Old norse) – used for all the smaller species in (or earlier in) Larus (contrary to all larger species, in the same Larus, who we Swedes call trut, in singular, trutar in plural).

 

[MJB]

Hi John, I take your point about the breeding sites being in many cases very similar, and as James has suggested this may have been a factor in linking the species with a common provincial name, (by which I mean a provincial name they have in common).
The gull was described very early (Turner, 1544) as the "semaw with a blak cop", (in Greek Cepphus), which ("cop") was a word meaning "head" if I'm not mistaken; I'm sure "cap" derives from the same source. Anyway a lapwing's distinctive features are its call, crest, mode of flying, mode of distracting from the nest, delicacy of eggs etc.
I'm sure gunning down the birds and describing them feather by feather has served science, (I've been reading a lot of this recently) but in my view it has also hindered our understanding, as even the best descriptions in Willughby and Ray for example don't give us an idea of what the bird looks like in the field, and also resulted in many juvenile gulls, birds of prey and even starlings being named as separate species relatively recently (I'm looking at Montagu's Dictionary, (1831 edition). And in contrast the calls of familiar birds described by ancient authors have remained recognisably the same for many hundreds of years.

I would hazard that 'cop' could derive from Old German - Modern German 'kopf' is 'head' - but possibly from Old Dutch 'kop', meaning 'hill' or 'head'?
MJB

 

[paranoid numanoid]

Maybe relevant, or not, I just can't tell, but the very first reference in Willughby's work, of 1676, see post #10, is (the non-binary/pre-1758): "Larus cinereus Ornithologi Aldrov. p.73 ... " which takes us to Aldrovandi's Ornithologiae (1637), here, (and the Plate of the Bird itself on page 76, here).

Looks like various names (of 'Sea-gulls') are dealt with on page 72, below: "DE LARIS CINEREIS. [Plural: The Grey(-backed) Gulls] Cap. VI. SYNONYMA" (in text, all in Latin), for example:


But no Pewit/Puit/Puet in sight (at least not as far as I can tell, or understand) ... to me it does look like it's truly an old provincial (English?) designation, just like Henry Leonard Meyer stated (in the mid-1800s).

Björn

PS. I Cannot help noticing the similarity between the German "Meb, Mevv", and "Miesz" with both the English epithet Mew Gull and the Swedish name mås (måsar in plural) – originating in mási (Old norse) – used for all the smaller species in (or earlier in) Larus (contrary to all larger species, in the same Larus, who we Swedes call trut, in singular, trutar in plural).

Great source again, thank you Bjorn. The full name given to the black-headed gull on the illustration is (roughly) "Grey gull, otherwise with red bill and legs". (It looks to me like a winter Black-headed gull in the (next) illustration "Larus albocinereus, torque cinereo" which extends the "ear" mark around the whole face and neck. Also it seems as if the illustration for The "Lesser grey gull" (Larus cinereous minor) given on the previous page is the common gull, or "sea-mew".
Yes the link to the Germanic and Swedish names is very striking, surely the "mevv" is an old way of writing "mew" (from the mewing call?), in some texts the w is written "uu" (double-u) and in others "vv" (French double-v).
I see you have skrattmas (Black-headed gull), and fiskmas (Common gull), but gratrut (Herring gull) and vittrut (Glaucous gull) (apologies for the missing diacretic marks, which I think make the vowel long, gra being grey I assume). I wonder why Swedish makes this distinction. I think the ancients used Gavia and Larus interchangeably for the gulls.
Aldrovand throws up a key passage which echoes Turner, about the Kywit or Kywitz [given by Aldrovand as vanellus, or lapwing] being mistaken for a gull or a tern, with its crest and greyish back and white belly, according to some "German scholars". Both Turner and Aldrovand refute the identification of Kywit and gull/tern, but the confusion may be the root of the Pewit appellation for the Black-headed gull, not only from around 1637 (Aldrovand) but from 1544 (Turner) !!
This may also of course be the source of the Celtic Breton "pivinc" for a gull, I think the Common gull, also a misattribution.
I'm still wading slowly through the key Latin passages...
Michael

I would hazard that 'cop' could derive from Old German - Modern German 'kopf' is 'head' - but possibly from Old Dutch 'kop', meaning 'hill' or 'head'?
MJB

Yes MJB I'm sure that's the origin, I remember watching the Hammerkop birds on TV and I think it was an Afrikaans word (from the Dutch?)

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Also see New Curiosities of Literature: And Book of the Months, Vol. II, by George Sloane (1849), both quoting and commenting on (in this particular case) older Literature, here.

Couldn't it simply be; Pewit (Lapwing) Gull, as in the Gull/s breeding (in large numbers) at the Pewit (Lapwing) poole (pool/Pond?). A sort of a secondary Toponym – originating in their shared breeding ground, the (old) "Pewit poole" ... or?

They anciently came to the old Pewit poole ... about half a mile S. W. of Norbury church [*], ...

To me, it looks like it could be worth having a look at: "Dr. Plot's Natural History of Staffordshire, p.231. folio. Oxford, 1686." (as told in Sloane's reference/footnote, on p.280), which takes us; here. The "Pewit poole" was also mentioned on pp.214, 216-217 (see here).

Also see W. H. Mullens commenting on Mr. Plot's accomplishments, in the Paper Some Early British Ornithologists and Their Works (1909); here (see pp.220-222):

Plot uses the spelling, Pewit or Pewet, indifferently.

Enjoy!

Björn

---

*Ought to be Norbury St Peter's Church here (alt. here, or here).

Maybe the old "Pewit poole" could be found in today's Aqualate Mere National Nature Reserve ... ?

Also note (even if somewhat irrelevant in this certain case) that there are quite a few places by the name Pewit in the UK (Google maps here): Pewit Island/Lane/-hall.

/B

 

[paranoid numanoid]

Also see New Curiosities of Literature: And Book of the Months, Vol. II, by George Sloane (1849), both quoting and commenting on (in this particular case) older Literature, here.

Couldn't it simply be; Pewit (Lapwing) Gull, as in the Gull/s breeding (in large numbers) at the Pewit (Lapwing) poole (pool/Pond?). A sort of a secondary Toponym – originating in their shared breeding ground, the (old) "Pewit poole" ... or?



To me, it looks like it could be worth having a look at: "Dr. Plot's Natural History of Staffordshire, p.231. folio. Oxford, 1686." (as told in Sloane's reference/footnote, on p.280), which takes us; here. The "Pewit poole" was also mentioned on pp.214, 216-217 (see here).

Also see W. H. Mullens commenting on Mr. Plot's accomplishments, in the Paper Some Early British Ornithologists and Their Works (1909); here (see pp.220-222):

Enjoy!

Björn

---

*Ought to be Norbury St Peter's Church here (alt. here, or here).

Maybe the old "Pewit poole" could be found in today's Aqualate Mere National Nature Reserve ... ?

Also note (even if somewhat irrelevant in this certain case) that there are quite a few places by the name Pewit in the UK (Google maps here): Pewit Island/Lane/-hall.

/B

Fantastic Bjorn, thank you.
I will be dipping into these sources in more depth for those clues. It seems the gulls "came to the Pewit Pool" and if so, the pool may have been already named (after the Lapwings), so yes, it would be as you suggest a "secondary toponym" (!), a bird assuming the name of another's landscape or habitat (when it moves in). But to me that still feels a bit tenuous. The lapwings wouldn't be directly linked with the pond, but with the fenny or marshy terrain around it. But I will delve deeper.
I found a "Puits Pond" in France which I'm going to look further into, I suspect it means a Pit Pond of some kind (puits = a pit, a well) (we have many old mining areas in the west of Scotland which have become flooded, and there were many gravel pits too which turned into "ponds" in recent decades, so that's a link too).