Status of Large Copper in the UK (2 Viewers)

[sidwemn]

The Rare Bird Alert Pager system is reporting several Large Copper of Carr Vale Nature Reserve near Bolsover in Derbyshire at the moment.

Could anyone confirm the current status of Large Copper in the UK? I assume they are part of an re-introduction either official or otherwise.

If anyone has details of where they are I would be interested regardless of thier status. I have never seen Large Copper anywhere and they are not too far to travel.

Thanks

Martyn

 

[Touty]

The species is artificially maintained at Woodwalton Fen with top-up releases of captive-bred stock into the small area of suitable habitat. None in Derbyshire. I'd be interested to see photos of the Derbyshire butterflies to see if they are the Dutch race 'batavus' (as at Woodwalton) or the much commoner (and smaller) 'rutilus' from eastern and southern Europe which uses a range of large dock species. Rutilus is out and about here (NE Italy) at the moment..... 2nd brood (and often the largest, numerically). It would be a shame if they became established as they could threaten the survival of the 'batavus' ssp. in UK in the long run.

 

[Brian Stone]

I'm sure I remember being told the Woodwalton releases were abandoned some time ago and the population has now disappeared. Might be wrong though. Anyone else know?

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi all,

Just to clarify, the LC's at Carr Vale were almost certainly illegal intro's. There have been all sorts of weird and wonderful Butterflies in Derbyshire, Notts & Lincs this year, thanks to a well-known local (and very expert) butterfly breeder.

Sean

 

[CornishExile]

Now you've piqued my curiosity, Sean. What else has been out and about?

I used to know a guy in Sherborne who had a small colony of Large Coppers he maintained in his walled garden on the outskirts of the town. An old-school lepidopterist of enormous skill as a breeder. I remember the first time I went round his house he had a Purple Emperor larva feeding on a spray of leaves on his desk... nice work, fella!

ce

 

[Gomphus]

It will be interesting to see if these individuals persist after this year, as up to three mating pairs were observed on the food plants. Interestingly, there were food plants present which had been well eaten, so I wonder if the adults were released recently or if caterpillars had been placed onto the Great water Docks earlier...or both.

 

[sphinx]

I'm sure I remember being told the Woodwalton releases were abandoned some time ago and the population has now disappeared. Might be wrong though. Anyone else know?

Yes I read that somewhere too. The LC is officially listed as extinct in the UK.

 

[Gomphus]

Just thought I'd add a couple of photo's of the insects at Carr Vale taken on Saturday afternoon.

 

[Pie Face]

Hi all,

Just to clarify, the LC's at Carr Vale were almost certainly illegal intro's. There have been all sorts of weird and wonderful Butterflies in Derbyshire, Notts & Lincs this year, thanks to a well-known local (and very expert) butterfly breeder.

Sean

Sean

As far as I am aware there is a resident Large Copper at Carr Vale

Mark

 

[Touty]

I used to know a guy in Sherborne who had a small colony of Large Coppers he maintained in his walled garden on the outskirts of the town.

Sure it wasn't a large colony of Small Coppers? (ROFL)

 

[Touty]

Just thought I'd add a couple of photo's of the insects at Carr Vale taken on Saturday afternoon.

Certainly looks like dispar / batavus. This page:

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/species.php?vernacular_name=Large Copper

is enough to show that there are a variety of people breeding the species in UK.

 

[CornishExile]

Sure it wasn't a large colony of Small Coppers? (ROFL)

Absolutely certain. I can just about manage to distinguish the two.

ce

 

[harry eales]

Lets face some facts folks. The British Large Copper L.dispar has been extinct since about 1850. All Large Coppers seen in Britain and Ireland since then have been introductions or one sort or another.

The Wood Walton introduction experiment was discontinued some years ago, and as a safeguard several breeders around the country maintained stocks in case the Wood Walton numbers dropped below survival point.

Several breeders still have their own stock, but no matter how long they have maintained them, it is immaterial they were never of British Origin in the first place.

There was a documentary on TV some years ago about the Wood Walton Large Coppers, most of the film was devoted to showing various Warblers stuffing their chicks full of adult specimens of the Large Copper. I have been led to believe that the reason the experiment was discontinued was that wood Walton Fen had become isolated by farmland from other fens and water levels could not be maintained.

Harry

 

[NeilJones]

The pictures certainly are Large Coppers. There are a large number of people breeding and rearing them. oin the distant past I have reared some as they are excellent photography subjects. It is a gorgeous butterfly the Dutch call them Groete Vuurvlinder. Great Fire butterflies. Thy are extinct at Woodwalton as they could not sustain themselves without regular releases. THe butterfly requires large areas of habitat to sustain it.
There are often attempts to establish new colonies of various species of butterflies in the UK but research has shown that for most of them this ends in failure.

 

[Marcus Lawson]

Could someone enlighten me with regards to the law and releasing non-native butterflies please? Is it the same as mammals/birds etc, ie illegal?

 

[CornishExile]

Could someone enlighten me with regards to the law and releasing non-native butterflies please? Is it the same as mammals/birds etc, ie illegal?

Marcus,

Your assumption is absolutely right - the Wildlife & Countryside Act specifically prohibits the release of all non-native species of flora and fauna. That would include non native subspecies of species formerly present in the UK, except under specifically granted licence - for example batavus Large Copper at Woodwalton, or Oland-sourced Large Blues at various sites in the south-west.

Jon

 

[Marcus Lawson]

Marcus,

Your assumption is absolutely right - the Wildlife & Countryside Act specifically prohibits the release of all non-native species of flora and fauna. That would include non native subspecies of species formerly present in the UK, except under specifically granted licence - for example batavus Large Copper at Woodwalton, or Oland-sourced Large Blues at various sites in the south-west.

Jon

Thanks for clarifying that Jon. I wonder if anybody has ever been prosecuted for releasing said butterflies? (sorry if this is hijacking the thread a bit)

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Deja-vous - I laughed out loud, but was also wondering whether our Mr Gomphus might be the Sergeant??? Mr Gomphus, on the basis that you photographed them on Saturday, am I right in my guess, or are you the man that was with Mr Freeze on Sunday when I was talking to him? Nice pics by the way.

Cornish - this year in Derbys there has been at least one Large Tortoiseshell, and A certain wood in Lincs has been subject to a number of "re-introductions" - Chequered skipper (failed), Marsh frit (highly successful) and others that slip my mind. I think there have been records of things like Monarchs, Camberwells etc Notts/Derbys/Lincs too, which were presumably from the same/similar places.

Sean

 

[NeilJones]

Cornish - this year in Derbys there has been at least one Large Tortoiseshell, and A certain wood in Lincs has been subject to a number of "re-introductions" - Chequered skipper (failed), Marsh frit (highly successful) and others that slip my mind. I think there have been records of things like Monarchs, Camberwells etc Notts/Derbys/Lincs too, which were presumably from the same/similar places.

Sean

I am concerned to hear anyone describing Marsh Fritillary introductions as "Highly Successful". The reality is that breeding it is childsplay ( I did it as a nine year old.) and that research has shown that introdutions do not work. There are over 80 known attempts and not one single long term success.
Typically they do well for a time and then die out.

The reasons for me not wanting to hear this false idea of success being spread around are two fold.

1. We need to know about the species' population dynamics in order to conserve it and the numerous attempts at introductions are
a) confusing the picture.
b) causing misapplication of study and conservation effort.


2. It helps people destroy Marsh Fritillary colonies. Developers are very found of saying that they can move all sorts of species and will very often use very dodgy consultants who would claim the Pope was Jewish if they thought they could win the argument.
I have been involved closely in fightinh one case of development led introduction of the Marsh Fritillary. It failed just like we told them it would and one of the finest meadows I have ever seen anywhere in the world had bveen destroyed. Flowers so dense they supressed the grass growth.

 

[Gary Francis]

There are over 80 known attempts and not one single long term success.
Typically they do well for a time and then die out.

Thought the (small) colony of marsh frits at Sand Point in Somerset were an introduction? Rumour has it that these are doing OK, but maybe they haven't been going for long.