Shooting Wildfowl In The North Kent Marshes (1 Viewer)

[peter hayes]

Did anyone see the programme tonight called 'Clarissa and the Countryman'? It visited North Kent marshes, and showed Wildfowlers who looked after the marshes. The pictures were superb.

The programme ended, however, with decoy ducks being placed strategically on stretches of water to lure in birds which are then shot. There was a jolly scene at the end where the merry gang totted up their tally of Wigeon and Shoveler, which they proceeded to roast and eat.

I wondered what BF members thought about this? Rather like hunting, it's not as straightforward s it seems. There is no doubt these people have helped to conserve the marshes. They are also strongly opposed to an airport being built at nearby Cliffe. Yet they slaughter the birds we love.

 

[digi-birder]

I saw this programme, which on the whole was very good. The last scenes really put me off - hearing them say how many Wigeon and Shoveler they shot.

It is a bit ironic (or is it a paradox - I can never decide) - they obviously do a lot of good for the area, but then spoil it by killing the things they're saving the area for.

 

[Paul Rule]

I have mixed views on this, but on balance I think they do more good than harm. I am totally against hunting with hounds, which is barbaric, but shooting does not involve a long drawn out hunt followed by death by being torn to peaces, and the shot wildfowl are used for food rather than being killed purely for the sake of sport.

Does anybody know what restrictions apply as to what species can and cannot be shot?

 

[peter hayes]

Excellent points you make there Paul. I don't know the answer to your question though. Perhaps one of the Kent members can tell us.

 

[Paul Rule]

Here I go answering my own question! found the following on a wildfowling web site.

British Quarry Species

Geese

Greylag Goose
Pinkfooted Goose
Whitefronted Goose (England & Wales only)
Canada Goose

Ducks

Mallard
Wigeon
Teal
Pintail
Gadwall
Shoveler
Tufterd Duck
Pochard
Goldeneye

Species Protected in Britain

Geese

Bean Goose
Barnacle Goose
Brent Goose (all varieties)
Whitefronted Goose (Scotland)

Ducks

Garganey
Scaup
Shelduck
Eider
Scoter (all varieties)
Long-tailed duck
Sawbills (Merganser and Goosander)

"It is important that all wildfowlers fully appreciate the importance of not shooting any of the protected species and are able to identify all the species they are likely to encounter on their local estuaries and marshes"

 

[nigelblake]

It is a sad fact that so much of the countryside that we know and love is the way it is as a result of hunting, there is no doubt that all of our upland moors are in such a good state because of Grouse shooting, all the other species that depend on this habitat benefit.
Although I personally hate to see any wild creature shot for sport I can't help thinking that in order to save a species some managed hunting may well do more good than harm. The plight of the Rhino is a very good example where active management and harvesting of Rhino horn would have fulfilled the market demand and kept the price low enough that poaching would not occur, in these circumstances the humane removal of Rhino horn with the use of anaesthetics could be possible and a sustainable product would have maintained a larger population of these wonderful beasts, the profits could then be used to maintain the herds and their habitat.

 

[oldsquaw]

In most state over here, hunting permits pay for non-game species as well.

 

[birdman]

I caught literally the end credits of "Clarissa" and heard the passage that you refer to Peter Hayes. Immediately my mind clicked into BF mode, and I wondered what the reaction might be.

Cards on the table...

I am anti-cruelty, but I'm not anti-hunting.

 

[Booga]

I find it distasteful if necessary, both the shooting and clarissa! I enjoy the programme, I think Johnny is great, but I hate the way clarissa uses it as a soapbox for her hatred of 'Blair'.

But, I believe, species would adapt if hunting/culling were to stop, it's not as if the sites they inhabit cannot be kept for the purpose of reprocreation. Obviously, the sites, maintained, would have to be monitored, and if overpopulation occured, then reduced.

 

[IanF]

I have no problem with hunting. As Nigel points out a lot of our upland birds and their habitats owe their existence to the hunting fraternity.

Duck and wildfowl hunting I think are slightly different. What if a large number of people suddenly took up duck hunting - what would happen to their numbers ? Ducks aren't bred espceially for the kill in the same way that Grouse and Pheasant are. I disagree with the hunting of non- replaced stocks of wild birds, unless there is an over-population question.

 

[winkle]

Kent Wildfowlers own the vast majority of the shooting rights on the North Kent Marshes, the rest is privately owned. The amount of permits are limited and only members or landowners can shoot, anybody else with a gun is liable for prosectution for armed trespass - a very serious criminal offence.

It is in KWA's interest to keep an eye out for poachers. They also own the best part of 3000 acres and manage it virtually the same as RSPB or KWT would, in fact probably have better breeding success because of preditor control.

Used to speak to a lot of them when I worked on the North Kent Marshes. Always got the impression that actually shooting something was secondary to piting themselves against nature and the elements. They very often came back with nothing.

KWA members have to record and submit their bags to KWA. The numbers are insignificant, although there could be a case made against them over disturbance, but the same study showed that walkers, and in particular dog walkers, caused infinately more signifcant disturbance.

On the whole I have only ever found them informed, concerned, responsible and friendly if a bit paranoid. They are very aware that one step over the line and it becomes armed trespass; at the best they will lose their KWA membership, at worst procecution.

Could go no for ever about this, but have to get back to work.

 

[alan_rymer]

IanF

I cannot imagine there would or could be a mass uptake in SHOOTING, ( not hunting ) how are all those people going to get hold of the guns/licences to do it.
Without the greedy owners managing the the moors, waterways etc, they wouldn't be there. At least, not the way they are at present!. Someone has to pay for the upkeep. Burning back of heather, cutting out swims for anglers etc. Unless of course its done for pleasure!. Without anglers its unlikely you could actually see any water for Brambles, Alder, Crack Willow & Hymalayan Balsam in many places in this country.
As for Blair and the Labour Party. They would prefer to concrete over the countryside!. Less hassle for them!. And people who work for small concerns on the land do not tend to be union members.

 

[simontucker]

Having watched a wildfowler at Thorney Island wing a teal and then discharge fully ten cartridges at it whilst it was flapping around injured on the water before sending his dog off to get it, I don't buy into the shooting and conservation argument.

Having watched the decline of the hen harrier as a result of criminal keeping practices on grouse moors, I am not convinced of the conservation credentials of the shooting set.

As for TBs credentials on the countryside, just because they don't pander to the farming lobby does not mean that they are concreting over the countryside: on the one hand they have the only environment minister of the last fifty years who knows anything about it, stopped the road building programme, they stopped out of town superstore developments, they are focusing on brown field housing development; on the other hand they have restarted some of the road-building, they have an obsession with airports and they don't seem to understand country matters outside of the hunting and farming lobby (who deserve to be ignored for their misrepresentation of every factor relating to their practices).

 

[winkle]

Having worked on a number of shooting estates, the old shoot anything with tooth or claw methods are fading away. I don't doubt it still goes on, but there are bad eggs in every profession, there's a lot of people working in conservation I wouldn't let near a window box. I even had an estate manager phone to tell me with great pride and excitement that Buzzard had nested on the estate. The same manger will moan like hell about Badgers damaging his corn, then be found with his family on spring evenings Badger watching!

In my experience if you want to see common wildlife in numbers, visit an estate that shoots. God help our wildlife if shooting is banned. All there will be are nature reserves and intensive agriculture. The scabby bits of woodland will be felled, marshes drained, hedges ripped out, rough grassland ploughed and no game crops, I could go on for ever about the benefits to wildlife that will be lost. Most of the landowners that have entered into Countryside Stewardship agreements, did so because it would enhance the hunting potential of their holding, not the money.

Every council I know in Kent has in their local plan that the majority of new development is to be built on brown field sites, a dangerous term that though- most of the Cliffe airport site could be classed as brown field, then along comes Prescott and his 200,000 house over and above what has already been alloctated for the county. There just ain't that many brown field sites. Like it or not land owned by KWA is as safe from development as if it were owned by RBPB, KWT, etc. and as good for wildlife, if not better because of preditor controls and lack of disturbance.

If the BF members want a visit to an estate in Kent that has a shoot, no problem to arrange, let me know. Won't be very bird orientated though, more botany and invertebrates.

 

[Darrell Clegg]

One thing that worries me about wildfowling is how can you identify a quarry species from a non quarry species down the barrel of a gun? It's hard enough - nay - sometimes impossible to tell a Bean Goose from a Pink-foot or a female Scaup from a Tufted in flight using all the optics at our disposal, so how do wildfowlers manage it?

Darrell

 

[Reader]

I didn't watch the show so cannot comment on its content but, until a few years ago, if you had asked me my thoughts on any one shooting at birds I would have been totally against it. Since then I have learnt more about the benefits of managed sites (especially Grouse shoots). The habitat is safe for one thing which means the birds can live in the surroundings that best serve their needs. These sites are usually rich in wildlife as the human interference is minimised. Outside of these managed sites the habitat isn't so safe, therefore the birds can lose out.

It's a catch 22 situation but I feel that the benefits of managed sites far outweigh the minus points that hunting itself brings.

 

[alanhill]

Quite by accident I happened upon the Fenland Wildfowlers Association website (www.fenlandwa.org.uk) when I was looking for "Golden Plover migration" in Google.

I was quite shocked to find that not only was there information about the Golden Plover, but that it was there in order to promote its hunting, along with the Lapwing.

Could someone please justify this, particularly in view of great concerns about the decline in Lapwing numbers.

alanhill

 

[Brent]

As an occasional Wildfowler it’s interesting to read the views on this subject. Winkle is correct in his assertion that the killing of a bird is secondary. The primary pleasure is derived from being in wild places in wild weather watching wild birds. Wildfowling is a harvest of the natural surplus produced by the hard work of the Wildfowlers during the summer months. Without this work it is doubtful that the marsh habitats would be as inviting or clean as they are at the moment.

Identification of quarry species is the responsibility of the individual. If in doubt don’t shoot. A combination of shape flight pattern and call is usually enough to confirm what the bird in question is.

“I was quite shocked to find that not only was there information about the Golden Plover, but that it was there in order to promote its hunting, along with the Lapwing.”

I was surprised at this so looked at the site. Nowhere does it say that Lapwing are shot. Indeed they are protected in the UK and have been for a number of years. Yes Golden plover are shot but not in large numbers and I have never raised a gun at one.

 

[Charlie M]

As an occasional Wildfowler it’s interesting to read the views on this subject. Winkle is correct in his assertion that the killing of a bird is secondary. The primary pleasure is derived from being in wild places in wild weather watching wild birds.

I'm willing to admit that there is an argument that without hunters we would lose some of our wild places - heaven knows we're far too selfish a species for these places just to exist because they're beautiful and have an intrinsic value - but it does bug the heck out of me to hear the old assertion that actually hunters are just out enjoying the countryside and almost reluctantly blow wildfowl out of the air. I enjoy the countryside but have never felt the urge to express that enjoyment by killing a duck or goose. I don't even feel the need to make loud, explosive noises and put flocks of waterfowl into the air. I just enjoy being there - in wild places in wild weather watching wild birds. Why not just admit you enjoy killing, and be done with it? Or are you afraid you might lose the support of some waverers?

 

[Mickymouse]

I'm willing to admit that there is an argument that without hunters we would lose some of our wild places - heaven knows we're far too selfish a species for these places just to exist because they're beautiful and have an intrinsic value - but it does bug the heck out of me to hear the old assertion that actually hunters are just out enjoying the countryside and almost reluctantly blow wildfowl out of the air. I enjoy the countryside but have never felt the urge to express that enjoyment by killing a duck or goose. I don't even feel the need to make loud, explosive noises and put flocks of waterfowl into the air. I just enjoy being there - in wild places in wild weather watching wild birds. Why not just admit you enjoy killing, and be done with it? Or are you afraid you might lose the support of some waverers?

Exactly, and have you ever had a day ruined by witnessing it.

Mick