Self found ? (1 Viewer)

[Larry Sweetland]

The recent thread on appending your posts with numbers of various lists got me thinking about this self found thing. Which of these scenarios (if any) would actually count as self found?

a) Being the first person to find the White-tailed Lapwing at Caerlaverock ? (even though someone else found it in Denmark)

b) Being the first person to find the WTL at Leighton Moss (assuming it's the same bird)

c) Finding the WTL the day after it disappeared from Caerlaverock, say 3 miles away from it's usual spot

d) As c but on the other side of the Solway after searching all day

e) Being "out of the loop" and finding a WTL at any of the above locations without knowing there was one in the country, even though others knew it was there

f) Counting Ptarmigan on your self found list even though you've only seen them at Carn Ban Mor, where you knew they were because others have found THE SAME INDIVIDUALS there. (ie. can you only count Ptarmigan as self found if you find one somewhere that you or other birders don't know where one is ?)

Or is it simpler than all that ?

Just bored, and curious at what you think that's all.

 

[Dougie Preston]

Most of the above count as self found in my book mate! The only problem I'd have would be with "C", but then how far would the bird have to relocate before I'd count it? Not sure about that one. Would love to re-find it up here, as it went very erratic before I could make any plans for a visit!

 

[Jane Turner]

For me
a-d definitely self found, e yes if no one pointed it out to you and you identified it.

...and you hit the problem that I have with the "genuine surprise" aspect of the self found unofficial rules. I've never been surprised by finding Ptarmigan on the tops of Scottish Mountains.

My most contentious self-found is A Bonarparte's Gull that was at Seaforth.... I played a hunch that it might come to New Brighton on the other side of the river when it went awol... and it did - that is why I feel the need to let c through

 

[ColinD]

I would say that self found means finding and identifying anything for yourself that you didn't know was there. That would include c) in my book.

However I guess it's not quite as simple as that, because that would rule out f). Perhaps it should be finding and identifying anything for yourself without being shown it.

 

[HH75]

Oh, what a can of worms...I've never been able to make out my finds list without wondering whether some birds should or shouldn't be on there!

 

[colonelboris]

So what if you took a trip to RSPB Radipole Lake, where it says there's bearded reedlings on their website. Even if you find one all by yourself with no-one to point it out, how does that count? Do I not count Alpine swift because Collins shows it being present where I saw it in Switzerland?
Yours confusedly,

Tony

 

[Isurus]

Behold the mighty punkbirder self-found rules (complete with case studies from the spice girls):
http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundrules.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundegs.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundcats.htm

 

[Isurus]

sorry girls aloud not the spice girls. I'm not sure whether that makes the site less or more awesome. its still awesome though.

 

[Larry Sweetland]

I should have guessed that that lot would have already come up with something like that ! Fair play.

 

[colonelboris]

Ah, but still doesn't answer my point - you know it's likely to be there, but you found it yourself...

 

[Farnboro John]

So what if you took a trip to RSPB Radipole Lake, where it says there's bearded reedlings on their website. Even if you find one all by yourself with no-one to point it out, how does that count? Do I not count Alpine swift because Collins shows it being present where I saw it in Switzerland?
Yours confusedly,

Tony

If you count Bearded Reedling at all (as opposed to the quaint Old English Bearded Tit) you will be practically unique!

I think the only way everyone can agree on self-found rules is that the only genuinely self-found birds are extra-limital vagrants located for the first time. Which hopefully relegates self-finding to no more meaningful than twitching.

John

 

[Ilya Maclean]

Ah, but still doesn't answer my point - you know it's likely to be there, but you found it yourself...

I think basically, you can count any common species, provided you weren't informed that a particular specific site hosts that species. I know this is the broad approach the punkbirder guys use. Examples:

(1) You find a pallid swift flying over a random village in southern Spain - OK in my book.

(2) You find a blue tit on your local patch / garden / bird feeder - OK in my book.

(3) You see lesser kestrels flying around the cathedral in Seville - not OK in my book, this is a well known specific site for them even depicted in the Collin's guide (although arguably you could have this if you genuinely didn’t know, a bit dodgy though).

(4) You find a willow tit at Sculthorpe woods or a lesser-spotted woodpecker in Holkham Park, even if there has been no reports for some time – again not OK in my book, as these are well known specific sites for these species (although again, arguably you could have these if you genuinely didn’t know).

(5) You find a flock of common cranes in the fields between Waxham and Horsey, even though they haven't been on the pagers for a month (6 days is what's specified in punkbirder rules) - not OK in my book, as again this is a well known feeding site. I don't think you should even have them if you see them at e.g. Cromer, as this is within 50 km of the known breeding / wintering area (see punkbirder rules).

 

[Larry Sweetland]

You're a hard man Mr Maclean !

 

[John Cantelo]

Nobody's mentioned birds seen on a seawatch yet! If you seawatch by yourself you're OK, but it's more efficient to do it in a group with folks scanning independently. So if someone calls Pom! Just as they fly into your field of view you can't count 'em .... or can you? You were already scanning that line and hadn't deviated.
What of a report of a 'possible Little Whimbrel' a mile down the coast which means you scrutinise all waders extra carefully. Then it flies past .... and it's an Hudsonian Whimbrel! (Yes, it happened to me - not submitted tho' as everyone tells me there's no chance a fly-by will be accepted!). What you don't see it first, the bird is misidentified by everyone and then hours later you reidentify it correctly?
John

 

[Farnboro John]

If you hear a call on your local patch, suspect you have something different and follow it up to gain an ID, you have a finding process. When seawatching you are simply noting things on a conveyor belt "Pom, Manxie, fondue set, cuddly toy.." not finding anything. None of them count.

John

 

[Larry Sweetland]

If you hear a call on your local patch, suspect you have something different and follow it up to gain an ID, you have a finding process. When seawatching you are simply noting things on a conveyor belt "Pom, Manxie, fondue set, cuddly toy.." not finding anything. None of them count.

John

Maybe some compromise is appropriate here John. Counting stuff if it's heading against the general flow of traffic ? It would be tragic not to allow yourself a clinched Nazca Booby belting west across your field of vision , when all the Gannets, liquidizers, Spice Girls pillow Cases etc are migrating to the east.

 

[Birdspotter]

Oh, what a can of worms...I've never been able to make out my finds list without wondering whether some birds should or shouldn't be on there!

Hit the nail on the head there Mr Hussey.
It is for the above reason that I have never posted my find list on Surfbirds.

I as a rule go birding with mates so that in itself can create problems for example

Situation 1. Birding Tyninghame with a mate and he say's "iv'e got an obscured bird that MIGHT be an American Goldie".
I look at the bird mmmmm looks good lets move I say.
We move to a better spot where we discuss the features and the bird looks excellent for one by now, the words "we need the underwing to clinch it" is hardly out of our mouth's when it flaps its wings YEEEESSSSSSSSSS.

I do not count this bird as a find because it was ID by my mate first.

Situation 2. Out with the same mate at Scoughall,East Lothian in November when both our attentions are drawn to a calling bird very similar to Lesser Whitethroat. We both know that the time of year and sound is good for Dusky Warbler. After searching there is still no sign of this elusive bird in amonst a tall reedbed. I go further round the pool and get 3 very brief views of a bird that I think might be a Phylosc( believe me it was a nightmare).
The M8 reapears and I tell him I am sure its a Dusky but I just havent seen it .
By then dusk appears and its off to the pub that night in Edinburgh to meet some mates.
The morning starts with a heavy head and a late start but the M8 phones to say he's seen the bird well its a Dusky.

I count this bird even though I never ONCE set my bins on it, in fact I said to the M8 that he had better write the desc as I didnt see anything on it.

Situation 3. I was one of the three observers who found the returning Aberlady King Eider, at the first sighting c1998 I did not count this as a find.
However in a subsequent year the bird reapeared briefly only for it to dissapear again, I refound it at Aberlady some 6-7 weeks later.

I count this as a find.

Situation 4. Can we count species that we know are around ie: Capercaille,Ptarmigan,Bittern and Cirl Bunting.
Lets face it its not hard to go to these birds known strongholds and find them.
I do count Ptarmigan as a find however because I went hill walking once and inardvertantly found some,if I was intentionally seeking this species out I wouldnt count it as a find.
So straight away there is some controversy in this last statement.

Can o worms without a doubt.

THE SOLUTION: bird a regular patch alone,preferablly somewhere were there are no species mentioned in situation 4 and hope that a migrant Bittern or Ptarmigan chooses your local ditch or snowpatch !! Otherwise open that can o worms!

 

[johnraven]

I think you shouldnt be so negative about finding birds with mates. If you are all looking at the bird, and are part of the discussion of its identity, then surely you can all count it as a find. Otherwise, self-finding would create incentives for increased anti-social behaviour and further boost popular stereotypes of birders.

I do, however, agree with punkbirders that one should not be able to claim that one simply didnt know about the mega rarity (e.g. WTP in example above) and therefore claim it when one accidentally stumbles on it. Too open to abuse and, as with the law, perhaps one should have a responsible to be up to date with the most rare birds hanging around the place, for this purpose.

 

[Birdspotter]

I think you shouldnt be so negative about finding birds with mates. If you are all looking at the bird, and are part of the discussion of its identity, then surely you can all count it as a find. Otherwise, self-finding would create incentives for increased anti-social behaviour and further boost popular stereotypes of birders.

I do, however, agree with punkbirders that one should not be able to claim that one simply didnt know about the mega rarity (e.g. WTP in example above) and therefore claim it when one accidentally stumbles on it. Too open to abuse and, as with the law, perhaps one should have a responsible to be up to date with the most rare birds hanging around the place, for this purpose.

I agree you can count birds if you are talking the ID through with a mate, but as I mentioned my mate had already said it was an American Goldie before
I even saw it, if he had said "what's that strange plover" then that would have been different.
Its a personal thing really what he or she decides to count, as I have said I just count birds I saw first myself,although I have a few joint finds when a bird flew or popped up in front of me and friends, and we all saw it at the same time.

I get a kill when I read through the Surfbirds findlist and I think "you never found that,so & so did" because if that was the case i would have a huge find list by now, but then again as I said in this post thats up to the individual person.