second winter yellow-legged gull? (1 Viewer)

[pabs]

Hello,
I photographed this gull yesterday afternoon and it is still present today. My thoughts are that it is a second winter mediterranean yellow-legged gull showing signs of coming into second summer.
Any comments appreciated:

http://www.birdlist.co.uk/january2007.htm

regards,
Paul Bowyer

 

[JANJ]

Hi Paul.

Immdiate impression is a 3cy (2nd winter) Herring Gull on jizz and fine barring on all greater coverts together with tertial pattern, predominated by white and little black, although a variable character. Usually YLG at this age show more grey feathers in the covert region and a couple of grey tertials as well (variable). The red eye-ring and yellowish hue to the legs might suggest a YLG and many YLG have darker bill but again variable. Shape of the bill suggest Herring since not so blunt-tipped (varies),but strong gony angle is good for YLG. Strange look about the face.

Would be nice to see some more pic. where wings and tail is visible and different stance.

JanJ

 

[pabs]

Hi Paul.

Immdiate impression is a 3cy (2nd winter) Herring Gull on jizz and fine barring on all greater coverts together with tertial pattern, predominated by white and little black, although a variable character. Usually YLG at this age show more grey feathers in the covert region and a couple of grey tertials as well (variable). The red eye-ring and yellowish hue to the legs might suggest a YLG and many YLG have darker bill but again variable. Shape of the bill suggest Herring since not so blunt-tipped (varies),but strong gony angle is good for YLG. Strange look about the face.

Would be nice to see some more pic. where wings and tail is visible and different stance.

JanJ

Hi JanJ

Thanks for your comments on the gull. Some interesting points you raised that I will look at. I managed to get some pictures of the bird this lunch time showing the tail and the wing pattern in flight. They are not great as I didn’t have much time. There were 2 of these birds last night. The second one was identical but had a complete tail band and more yellow bill. This I feel makes it unlikely to be a hybrid unless they are siblings.
I found this powerpoint presentation on the internet that has photos of 2nd winter/summer ylgulls that look similar. They are the ones taken at Royan:

Http://computing.unn.ac.uk/staff/CGNR1/newcastle october 2001 all.ppt

In the above link they give biometrics of yellow-leg, herring and lbb. It shows ylgull as being larger than the other 2. The tertials and coverts look similar to me. I am of course taking that the information in this study are correct.

New photos are at:

http://www.birdlist.co.uk/ylgull-22-1-07.htm

regards,
Paul
www.birdlist.co.uk

 

[tittletattler]

Hi Paul,

It's certainly an interesting looking bird!

A number of points concern me about this being a 2nd winter/summer (ie 3rd Calender) Yellow Legged Gull although I can see why you would think that it is:

1) The wing coverts appear overwhelming pale and this may be a better feature of Herring Gull
2) The lack of a complete tail band.
3) Should more of the wing coverts (especially median coverts?) be adult type grey for a 3rd Calendar Yellow Legged?
4) The head streaking perhaps is a better fit for Herring Gull, especially at this time of year.

It could just be that all of the points I've raised above could be highly variable . However, I have been fortunate enough to be able to watch between 30-50 Yellow Legged Gulls in the Dartford area over the course of the last month and about 10-15 of those birds were 2nd winter birds. Most of them now have almost gleaming white heads whereas in December just one bird had a white head. Would a Western bird start to lose the head streaking as well?

Some pics of one of those birds are attached. As an aside, the third image has six species of gull in it.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[JANJ]

In the standing bird there´s a bluish hue to upperparts but in the flying bird there´s more a neutral grey tone and it looks dark. As Andy points out the lack of a complete, or at least an almost complete tail band in combination with the rest of the gulls plumage - 3cy type is advanced for YLG and also HG but some are more advanced with less black.

Take a look at these YLG which will give an idea about pattern and moult:

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cyoct/02cyoct.htm

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cynov/02cynov.htm

http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/3cyjan/03cyjan.htm

JanJ

 

[Steve Waite]

Some pics of one of those birds are attached. As an aside, the third image has six species of gull in it.

Yellow-legged (2nd winter), Herring (2nd winter), Lesser Black-backed (2nd winter), Common (adult), Black-headed (adult and 1st winter) and Med Gull (1st winter)...???

 

[pabs]

Hi Paul,

It's certainly an interesting looking bird!

A number of points concern me about this being a 2nd winter/summer (ie 3rd Calender) Yellow Legged Gull although I can see why you would think that it is:

1) The wing coverts appear overwhelming pale and this may be a better feature of Herring Gull
2) The lack of a complete tail band.
3) Should more of the wing coverts (especially median coverts?) be adult type grey for a 3rd Calendar Yellow Legged?
4) The head streaking perhaps is a better fit for Herring Gull, especially at this time of year.

It could just be that all of the points I've raised above could be highly variable . However, I have been fortunate enough to be able to watch between 30-50 Yellow Legged Gulls in the Dartford area over the course of the last month and about 10-15 of those birds were 2nd winter birds. Most of them now have almost gleaming white heads whereas in December just one bird had a white head. Would a Western bird start to lose the head streaking as well?

Some pics of one of those birds are attached. As an aside, the third image has six species of gull in it.

Cheers,

Andy.

Thanks to Andrew and JanJ for the id pointers. I certainly feel like I have learnt a lot more about this species. I generally only id adults which occur on the beach occasionally. Looking again at the Royan photos it seems clear now that they are younger birds judging by the mantle. I think that the main controversial point is the head as you both mention the variablility of all the other features. I did wonder about atlantis but having 2 present yesterday i feel would make it unlikely, plus I read somewhere that atlantis is slightly smaller. This bird is bigger than any of the gulls on the beach except GBBG.
I also agree that the moult is unusual. The tail and bareparts seem to have over taken the body. Hopefully it will stick around long enough to go through some more changes.
regards,
Paul

 

[Th_SQ]

I think something happened to its tail. Did it lose part of its tail which partly regrew with a more advanced age ??? Mere guessing of course but both the shape and the pattern of the tail have something wrong ...

I see nothing wrong in the head streakings (typically very fine, even in january) or tertial pattern for a michahellis (lato sensu for the latin enthusiasts 8-P ). Yellowish legs and brick-red ! eye-ring are good supportive characters.

Except the tail (but I have an ad hoc explanation) I see a good Yellow-legged.

 

[pabs]

I think something happened to its tail. Did it lost part of its tail which partly regrowed with a more advanced age ??? Mere guessing of course but both the shape and the pattern of the tail have something wrong ...

I see nothing wrong in the head streakings (typically very fine, even in january) or tertial pattern for a michahellis (lato sensu for the latin enthusiasts 8-P ). Yellowish legs and brick-red ! eye-ring are good supportive characters.

Except the tail (but I have an ad hoc explanation) I see a good Yellow-legged.

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on the tail this morning that the bird seemed to have more immature tail feathers when tail is fanned during a landing. It made me wonder if the bird had more tail feathers than it should?
regards,
Paul
www.birdlist.co.uk

 

[tittletattler]

Yellowish legs and brick-red ! eye-ring are good supportive characters.

Hi TH_SQ et al,

Indeed, these two points are quite persuasive (not sure about the others . Also, the wings look very dark in flight with only P1-P2 seemingly being pale grey. Janj - would Herring Gull always show more grey inner primaries at this age? If so, then the upperwing looks better for Yellow Legged although check out the general variability in 2ndwinter/3rd winter Herring Gulls upperwing at these ages in 'Olsen and Larsson'.

Still, some of the features better fit Herring as stated above.

Don't give up on this bird yet Paul! I'll be in Somerset this weekend. Where exactly did you photograph this bird?

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[lou salomon]

hi paul, andy, jan etc,

the initial bird looks much more like a herring gull to me than a YLG. its 'face' just doesn't look good for YLG although admittedly this is subjective and easily tricking. but the rest too: all patterned gr. coverts, blurred and dense head streaking (variable...), more brown median coverts & its whole structure (with robustish legs etc). but i see tsqu's point about the red orbital ring.

andy, 2nd winter birds can have even more conspicous paler inner primaries, in both HG and YLG. see plates 383 and 384 in olsen or this: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/larmic121copy72.jpg

 

[tittletattler]

andy, 2nd winter birds can have even more conspicous paler inner primaries, in both HG and YLG. see plates 383 and 384 in olsen or this: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/larmic121copy72.jpg

Thanks Lou - the inner primaries look new on the bird in the link; would that be the case in March (when this bird was photographed). If so, what age is this bird? Could it be that it has recently moulted its darker 2nd winter inner primaries and replaced them with newer adult type 2nd summer/3rd winter feathers? I found the section on 'moult' in Olsen & Larsson a little confusing!

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[JANJ]

Hello Andy.

The linked YLG in Lou,s post is from Bulgaria August in heavy moult in first complete moult to second winter, some first generation (juvenile) outer primaries and inner secondaries remains, as in the tail.
The YLG in the gull book noted by Lou shows quite clear pale inner primaries creating pale window except on the one in 382. Comparing 382 with 383 and 384, assuming the ageing is correct, may give a strange impression since 382 looks rather dark on inner primaries, while the other two looks paler. One of the reasons, that I can see, to whyy 383 could be a 3rd winter is that the inner primaries are purer grey (usually with darker outer web and paler inner web in 2nd winter) and most important, with broad white tips (as in Herring Gull). So 382 and 384 have primaries of the same generation since primaries are not moulted in the partial spring moult. Dificult to judge in photos how pale /dark certain areas on a birds plumage really are, and there are variation.

http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?p...der=lajiluettelo.nro,paiva+DESC&find=find&r=1

Argentatus:

http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?p...okki,+Herring+Gull,+Larus+argentatus&lang=eng

JanJ

 

[tittletattler]

Thanks Janj.

Have a look at the date next to 'larmic121copy72'. Here:

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/

I was aware that primary moult took place later in the year which is why I was surprised to see a March date next to the photo!

The date by the photo is the date that the photo was posted to the site.

Cheers,

Andy.

 

[Th_SQ]

Hi Andrew,

not sure about the others

i.e head streakings and vermiculations ?

Check (ringed!) birds : http://www.digimages.info/goeleu/larmic031103_019Z_5w.jpg
http://www.digimages.info/goeleu/larmic031103_070Z_1w.jpg
at http://www.digimages.info/goeleu/goeleu.htm

 

[pabs]

Don't give up on this bird yet Paul! I'll be in Somerset this weekend. Where exactly did you photograph this bird?

Cheers,

Andy.[/QUOTE]

The bird was photographed on weston-super-mare sea front. There was no sign of it yesterday evening (25th) or this morning. I'm still going regularly to feed the gulls so will post if it re-appears.
regards,
Paul
www.birdlist.co.uk