Red-tailed Hawk? - Norfolk, UK (1 Viewer)

[Tractorboy69]

Whilst I was out today I saw what I thought was just a pale Common Buzzard approaching, and as I was photographing other things at the time I just took a few snaps as it passed over.

However when looking at the photos tonight obviously the orangey tail, plus the dark leading edge to the wing, pale breast/dark belly, restricted carpal patches and slightly bulging secondaries now make me think Red-tailed Hawk rather than pale Common Buzzard.

Any thoughts?


Simon

 

[ben_lewis]

Looks good for RT Hawk to me, especially with the head pattern as well. There has been one near Thetford for a few years now, I believe. Maybe its fianaly gone for a bit of a wonder.

 

[lostinjapan]

I think the bird has wandered before and there have been several falconer's birds seen in East Anglia in recent years.

Sean

 

[ceasar]

Yes, it is a Red-tailed Hawk. Probably an "Eastern" subspecies. B. j. borealis. It shows three major identifying field marks. 1. The Red tail, of course. 2. The black patagial bars on the leading edge of the under wing which are readily visible here because of the under wings overall light colororation. Even juveniles which don't display a Red tail until after the 1st molt in their 2nd year have this field mark. It is difficult to see on dark morph birds. 3. And the "belly band," which looks like a sort of cummerbund across the middle of the abdomen.

There are also the "wing windows" at the end of the wings. They look sort of like the small front windows that used to be on the front doors of cars in the early 1950's. You opened them up at an angle to deflect the wind from coming into the front seat when you drove with the windows open during the days before air conditioning!

Speaking of cars, I remember reading an article on American Falconry where these raptors were described as the "Chevrolet" of North American Hawks. They are quite common. I could see one every day if I worked at it. They will continue to thrive despite General Motors coming bankruptcy!:king: They have adapted remarkably well to the environmental changes in the USA over the centuries.

"See the USA,
In your Chevrolet!"

Bob

 

[apbarr]

Not disputing the id but just a word of caution on the red tail. My mate had a Common Buzzard for 28 years that had a very red tail and I've seen others with a fair amount

 

[birderbf]

Not disputing the id but just a word of caution on the red tail. My mate had a Common Buzzard for 28 years that had a very red tail and I've seen others with a fair amount

I'm wondering if this may be the case here. I don't have any literature comparing RTHA to Common Buzzards, but the shape of the bird struck me as wrong for a Red-tailed. The trailing edge of the wing is quite straight and even (should bulge), the body is quite stocky and the tail feels slightly off (I'm not why) and lacks a dark terminal band. I could easily be (further) proven crazy though!

 

[Jim M.]

I'm wondering if this may be the case here. I don't have any literature comparing RTHA to Common Buzzards, but the shape of the bird struck me as wrong for a Red-tailed. The trailing edge of the wing is quite straight and even (should bulge), the body is quite stocky and the tail feels slightly off (I'm not why) and lacks a dark terminal band. I could easily be (further) proven crazy though!

I know what you are saying, but the patagial bars are unique to Red-tailed Hawk (and its more obscure South American cousin whose name I forget). So I think Red-tailed Hawk it must be.

Best,
Jim

 

[Motmot]

Careful with that, some Buteo buteo may show similar bars:

http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/grapplingbuzzards/buzzard_00.jpg
http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/NRT29jan06/buzzard_comp.jpg

 

[njlarsen]

I know what you are saying, but the patagial bars are unique to Red-tailed Hawk (and its more obscure South American cousin whose name I forget). So I think Red-tailed Hawk it must be.

Best,
Jim

Shortly after my first trip to the US, I thougth I had found a redtail in Denmark. Those I was standing next too shot down my opinion, and these guys had been involved in one of the first field guides to raptors only that I can remember. One of my arguments was the patagial bar, but that does not seem to be as unique when you compare with European birds. (As others point out).

Niels

 

[Jim M.]

Careful with that, some Buteo buteo may show similar bars:

http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/grapplingbuzzards/buzzard_00.jpg
http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/NRT29jan06/buzzard_comp.jpg

They've got some nerve!

(Must be unusual though, since it's not shown in my Collins guide.)

Best,
Jim

 

[ceasar]

Here's a picture of one taken in Holland last year. There are 13 accepted races; 5 of them are in the USA and Canada. Not to mention the color morphs among them. Brian K. Wheeler's 2 Guides: RAPTORS of (Eastern) (Western) North America are the best source books available for those interested in North American raptors. ISBN 0691134774.

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=189192

Bob

 

[Gentoo]

I know what you are saying, but the patagial bars are unique to Red-tailed Hawk (and its more obscure South American cousin whose name I forget). So I think Red-tailed Hawk it must be.

Best,
Jim

I think you might mean the Rufus-Tailed Hawk?

 

[Motmot]

Those secondaries look darkish and not bulging. Are these ever found in adult Red-taileds?

Maybe is time to bring this thread back to the arena...

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=5908&highlight=red+tailed+hawk+britain

 

[CAU]

Those secondaries look darkish and not bulging. Are these ever found in adult Red-taileds?

Maybe is time to bring this thread back to the arena...

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=5908&highlight=red+tailed+hawk+britain

The hybrid theory is perhaps pretty reasonable.

 

[ceasar]

Those secondaries look darkish and not bulging. Are these ever found in adult Red-taileds?

Maybe is time to bring this thread back to the arena...

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=5908&highlight=red+tailed+hawk+britain

In North America this bird, because of it's 4 field marks, would be accepted as a Red-tailed Hawk with little or no discussion.

Additionally, we don't see much discussion of any hybridization of them with other NA Buteos either. Wheeler's books do discuss intergrades among the various RTH subspecies. The various color morphs within each subspecies would affect color changes in the secondaries and other parts.

The RTH was introduced in Europe for Falconry purposes, I understand. I would hazard a guess that there have been some serious attempts to hybridize them with the Common Buzzard. (Curiously, this bird seems to be more like a RTH than any of the other NA Buteos.) If successful it would, no doubt, result in some structural differences such as the ones discussed here. Also, It would be no surprise if some of these birds escaped.

I'll let this open for more discussion.

Cordially,
Bob

 

[Gentoo]

In North America this bird, because of it's 4 field marks, would be accepted as a Red-tailed Hawk with little or no discussion.

Additionally, we don't see much discussion of any hybridization of them with other NA Buteos either. Wheeler's books do discuss intergrades among the various RTH subspecies. The various color morphs within each subspecies would affect color changes in the secondaries and other parts.

The RTH was introduced in Europe for Falconry purposes, I understand. I would hazard a guess that there have been some serious attempts to hybridize them with the Common Buzzard. (Curiously, this bird seems to be more like a RTH than any of the other NA Buteos.) If successful it would, no doubt, result in some structural differences such as the ones discussed here. Also, It would be no surprise if some of these birds escaped.

I'll let this open for more discussion.

Cordially,
Bob

I've heard about this too and agree that the Buzzard physically is more like RTH than the other NA Buteos. Vocally, Buzzard seems closer to RSH from the one recoding I've heard. I guess that largely doesn't matter at this point unless the Buzzard is a frequently vocal species like RSH. Red-Tails tend to be silent most of the time. Was the bird in question vocal at all? I'm off on a tangent now so I'll stop.

 

[CAU]

The RTH was introduced in Europe for Falconry purposes, I understand. I would hazard a guess that there have been some serious attempts to hybridize them with the Common Buzzard. (Curiously, this bird seems to be more like a RTH than any of the other NA Buteos.) If successful it would, no doubt, result in some structural differences such as the ones discussed here. Also, It would be no surprise if some of these birds escaped.

From what I remember from the previous threads an escaped Red-tailed Hawk has apparently previously hybridized with a wild Common Buzzard in the UK.

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

Like the others I agree that if this bird were in NA, there would be no question on the ID of red tail.

OTOH, I'm not expert enough to rule out common buzzard. I know the red tail does not rule out buzzard, as I've seen several in Asia with red tails. And as others have posted, the patagial markings are apparently not exclusive to RTHA either.

The thing that strikes me as unusual is the belly-band. This is a very typical Red-tail belly band. None of the field guides I have show the same kind of belly band on a buzzard. If the experts say that buzzards can show that, too, then I quit.

 

[Motmot]

The thing that strikes me as unusual is the belly-band. This is a very typical Red-tail belly band. None of the field guides I have show the same kind of belly band on a buzzard.

Not too diff from the birds linked below. Common Buzzards are extremely variable and if you look for long enough you find almost any underparts design.

http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/uploads/c/calidrislanza/7266.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BsKTlwu_fgU/SY3RmSFXMmI/AAAAAAAAAkA/qXw53L9nQ-4/s400/ratoneroo.jpg

 

[ceasar]

Not too diff from the birds linked below. Common Buzzards are extremely variable and if you look for long enough you find almost any underparts design.

http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/uploads/c/calidrislanza/7266.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BsKTlwu_fgU/SY3RmSFXMmI/AAAAAAAAAkA/qXw53L9nQ-4/s400/ratoneroo.jpg

The variablity of the Common Buzzard is another trait it shares with the Red-tailed Hawk which is also noted for it's variability. They both also appear to be very adaptable to the in roads of civilization. Have any established themselves in metropolitan areas like the several pairs that are thriving now in New York City? Here is a thread of a Red-tailed Hawk that has REALLY adapted to city life!

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=133014&highlight=Office+Hawk See pictures in thread #3!

Bob