Red or Black Kite? (Istanbul/Turkey) (1 Viewer)

[Melih]

Need help to identify this bird from Istanbul. I think it's Red but best to be sure. A friend told me it may be a hybrid. What do you think?

 

[Birdy1]

Red kite - notice the sharply forked tail, the best way to ID it

 

[Butty]

Looks good for red kite.
Re. your mate... Not being able to decide what something is is a really bad reason for resorting to the 'hybrid' option.

 

[tconzemi]

It's a typical Black Kite
6 fingers, not so deep fork
Extremwly well marked primary window
Eastern BK much more redish and tail a bit more forked than central European birds

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

There is quite a lot of barring in the inner tail feathers and the white wing patch; and what about the short but still visible sixth finger?
(not like typical red kite)

The tail fork looks rather deep for Black kite on the other hand.
So I see here where your friend was coming from when saying Hybrid .

 

[Derbyfella]

There is quite a lot of barring in the inner tail feathers and the white wing patch; and what about the short but still visible sixth finger?
(not like typical red kite)

The tail fork looks rather deep for Black kite on the other hand.
So I see here where your friend was coming from when saying Hybrid .

Brilliant thread already and what was an immediate clear cut answer to me has been muddied with a little bit of research And knowledge.
my answer now would be Black kite…some barring on tail, number of primaries. The fork……would if the angle of the tail in the photos is altering the impression.
Good learning experience for me this one

One thing - the iris appears to be yellow
so yes some confusion here

 

[KenM]

I suppose one could call it an artefact…but the edge of the tail fork does look somewhat rufous?

Cheers

 

[Butty]

The finger-count is equivocal. And I don't see anything else that makes this a black kite.

 

[KenM]

If the upper-tail was rufous, would that favour a hybrid….or RK over BK….or just an Eastern BK with an anomalous red tail.
Indeed do RK and BK hybridise to any extent in their respective “Eastern ranges?”

Cheers

 

[kuzeycem]

What is probably the same bird was present on 25 Dec when I visited the same area (along with 4 real Red Kites). I saw it 2-3 times and every time it rang 'Red Kite alarm bells' as the field impression was a dead ringer. But as others have pointed out here, careful examimation shows it doesn't fit in multiple ways.
I'm sure it's not a Red Kite but whether it's a hybrid probably requires some specialist knowledge.
Meanwhile, here are some screen grabs of the photos I took of the bird. Might share the originals if I get the chance later.

 

[PYRTLE]

Maybe of interest a hybrid has been recorded and photographed in Cyprus by Dave Nye. I remember richardm commenting on this in Birding World.

 

[KenM]

Image 6 of the last set looks as though the upper tail is brown not rufous.
Presumably this feature along with dark underbelly, six fingers and pale “contrasting” window to the underwing are all pro BK?

However a deeply forked tail (more forked than I’ve seen on a few RK’s) and the general rufous plumage are all pointers for EBK, because if this is typical of the latter, looking nothing like the BK’s that I saw in Israel (loads at close quarters) no wonder it looks disconcerting.

Does make you seriously wonder what a hybrid would look like, also what are the sequential DNA differences between BK and EBK…if any?

Cheers

 

[tconzemi]

This is a hybrid from Crete, Greece (from FB Crete-birdwatching page)
Imho the problem with Eastern Kites is not to miss the very, very uncommon hybrid, but misidentification of BK making it difficult to assess older reports of Red Kites in the Middle East

 

[stevethehydra]

I'm not sure that the first and second sets of photos here are the same bird.

I feel like the first set would pass without comment in the UK as a Red Kite, whereas the second definitely looks "off", with a superficial Red Kite look but both plumage and proportions not quite right. The last photo in the second set in particular (showing upperparts) looks much more Black Kite-like.

PDF attached (found via Google) of presumed Red x Black Kite hybrids in Estonia - some photos, esp "Case 2", look very similar to the second bird here to me.

 

[KenM]

Having quickly looked through RK flight images I’m beginning to wonder just how much “open to interpretation” P6 might be as a “secondary” or a “primary” with some RK’s showing more pronounced (longer) “secondary” than others, alternatively this might be an age related difference?
Also with such a “pronounced” tail fork in EBK as opposed to virtually none in nominate BK, I would like to see the sequential DNA in order to justify the reasoning behind the “differences?”

Cheers

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

Ken I do not understand you here - however long it is , it is always a primary concerning the anatomy?!

 

[jalid]

I agree that bird in post 1 is different individual to bird in post 10. If you look closely the barring in the middle primaries of the right wing you see some differences.

Hybridisation of Red and Black Kite is quite well known, here is one article with photos of a mixed pair:

Conservation of the Red Kite Milvus milvus (Aves: Accipitriformes) Is Not Affected by the Establishment of a Broad Hybrid Zone with the Black Kite Milvus migrans migrans in Central Europe

Some Black Kites are redder than others and may look especially so in the bright Middle Eastern light, but I would not say that eastern Black Kites are on average any more reddish than western. On the contrary, "eastern Black Kite" means normally lineatus or lineatus intergrades, and they are not reddish, nor their shape is closer to Red Kite.

 

[tconzemi]

Some Black Kites are redder than others and may look especially so in the bright Middle Eastern light, but I would not say that eastern Black Kites are on average any more reddish than western. On the contrary, "eastern Black Kite" means normally lineatus or lineatus intergrades, and they are not reddish, nor their shape is closer to Red Kite.

I agree, both on bright light and wrong use of term 'eastern' by myself

 

[KenM]

Ken I do not understand you here - however long it is , it is always a primary concerning the anatomy?!

Trawling images on the web Joern, (presumably correctly ID’d?) some of the Red Kites appear to have a longer P6 than others and where that occurs it appears obviously longer than the adjoining secondary?
Thus what is the determinant factor from an anotomical perspective, ie if P6 is spread as a “finger” and being contrastingly black as the preceding 5 primaries and is longer than the adjoining pale secondary?

Cheers

 

[Richard Dale]

Ken, almost all birds, including red kites, black kites, and red/black kite hybrids, have ten primaries. The feather you are referring to next to the sixth primary (numbering them from the outermost) is therefore seventh primary. Secondaries don't have anything to do with it.