Reasons for the absence of new, great second tier scopes? (1 Viewer)

[looksharp65]

Sure, I know my question holds a fair share of generalization. But facts remain, the binocular market appears to be over-heated when newer, better, cheaper binoculars emerge every trimester or so.

We know of the Zen-Ray, the Vortex Razor, the Celestron M2, the Olivon 84 and the (discontinued?) Theron Mag 82. We also remember the Delta 65 and its predecessor in the USA. But there's no buzz. None at all. Zip nada.
The Meostar S2 RRP has skyrocketed and it does not quite seem to be the bargain it used to be (the Swedish currency has become cheaper which doesn't help, either). The asked *bay prices for used Nikon ED82's vary considerably, but with fewer on the market it seems that the sellers take a chance, hoping people are willing to pay twice what used to be standard not so long ago.

The silence about the abovementioned scopes is striking and I assume they just can't compete with Swarovski, Kowa, Zeiss and Leica. I'm inclined to believe that scopes are more serious business and that only the big actors seem to produce scopes of consistently high quality, although lemons can be found among them as well.

I'm looking into the market for an angled ED scope with a 75 to 85 mm aperture, a top notch view and a reasonable price.
While Fieldscopes ED82A and ED78A top my wishlist (I have a WF38x to boot) , I'd ideally go with something cheaper as this won't see a lot of use.
But it must be prepared to deliver once out there.

Thoughts?

//L

 

[mayoayo]

Lars,..You are missing a few models that actually were commented in the forum and got very good reviews..i think a Brunton model was reviewed and got high grades by many members here,even henry Link bought and kept a unit and that is a high note for the scope¡..the Vanguards seemed to create some interest too..and you are mossing from your list of memorable models ,quite a few brand and a long list of models..opticron,hawke, and even helios,that sold the fieldmaster/saker all have many offers in the configuration you are interested in...

 

[looksharp65]

Lars,..You are missing a few models that actually were commented in the forum and got very good reviews..i think a Brunton model was reviewed and got high grades by many members here,even henry Link bought and kept a unit and that is a high note for the scope¡..the Vanguards seemed to create some interest too..and you are mossing from your list of memorable models ,quite a few brand and a long list of models..opticron,hawke, and even helios,that sold the fieldmaster/saker all have many offers in the configuration you are interested in...

Well, the Fieldmaster/Saker is not of interest for me. It is a bigger scope I'm having in mind. And being big is not enough, it must be sharp too.
My PF65EDIIA was not great at 43x and I've seen specimens of most brands with a truly terrible lack of sharpness. Read the Mag 82 review where the scope started to soften beyond 40x, which is plain ridiculous for an 82 mm scope.
Same with a review with some Hawke scope, it was favourable as a whole but mentioned softening in the upper zoom range.

The last thing I want to do is haul around a 2000 gram scope with a sharpness inferior to my Nikon ED50A. My ED82A betters the 50 with some margin, so it is the benchmark.

Basically I'm asking "Where's the Maven B2 counterpart in scopes?"

//L

 

[looksharp65]

Manuel, you mentioned Henry's experience with the Brunton Icon. His findings, and the fact that Brunton already were leaving the sports optics market confirms what I wrote in my original post.
It seems harder to make a living making scopes than binoculars, and I think this partly has to do with the need for tighter tolerances with scopes.
Opticron might be the brand to look closer at, since they are the masters of public relations. They're coming to my home town next weekend for a bird show.

//L

 

[kabsetz]

Lars,

If you already have the ED 82 A, why do you need another scope of similar size?

Kimmo

 

[mooreorless]

Kimmo, I think Lars Nikon 82ED is the straight model.

 

[mayoayo]

Lars..I mentioned Helios,the brand that sells the fieldmaster (saker is the american version)..they have some other models ,ED ,large objective, etc,that have been mentioned in the forum ,and reviewed even..same with Hawke,Vanguard etc...these brands have models that come to mind precisely because they have been mentioned by other members...but there is a bit of a risk with all these "premium budget" models, I am sure you would agree..for what is worth i owned a celestron Regal,a 65 ,that was wonderfully corrected and had very good contrast and color rendition..maybe was good luck,but what a great scope ...!
You can find old swaro At 80 HD , Kowa 823 or TSN3 for little money ..TSN 3 would be inexpensive and they are very nice..great optics,and excellent build quality all metal..also very compact for the size..

 

[jring]

You can find old swaro At 80 HD , Kowa 823 or TSN3 for little money ..TSN 3 would be inexpensive and they are very nice..great optics,and excellent build quality all metal..also very compact for the size..

Hi,

I think what mayoayo said is indeed part of the reason. Spotting scopes are a very narrow market compared to bins - there's not a lot people needing one.

So if these get inherited you can be quite sure they get sold - unlike bins which are kept more often unless you really need the cash.

Also last gen alpha scopes or even the generation before are still very good optically and certainly better built than current mid-price scopes at comparable prices. And if you sell 'em again the resale value will also be better for the alphas.

I think this situation might be the reason why there's not so much new development in the mid price sector for scopes.

Joachim

 

[FrankD]

Read the Mag 82 review where the scope started to soften beyond 40x, which is plain ridiculous for an 82 mm scope.
......

Basically I'm asking "Where's the Maven B2 counterpart in scopes?"

//L

LS,

I am curious. What review are you referring to with the regard to the Mag82?

I don't remember writing anything to that effect and I don't remember SteveC writing that either.....

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2031647&postcount=5

I still have my Mag82. It has served me very well over the last four years. I don't regret choosing it at all for my 80 mm class spotting scope. I do typically use it with the 30x wide angle eyepiece but have used the 25-75X zoom on numerous occasions where 30x was insufficient. CA does manifest more readily at the higher magnifications but the overall loss in apparent sharpness as a result is minimal.

On a related note I did recently find that I could mount an Opticron HDF zoom to the Mag82 with some step rings and image quality is better than with the factory zoom. Wider field of view and more neutral color tone. A slight decrease in the zoom range is the only negative. I believe my calculations yielded a 66x max magnification.

As for why they are discontinued, from what I was told they weren't a big seller...not necessarily because of any performance/quality issues but rather because the initial cost (around $900-$950 from what I remember) was too close to what the Nikon ED82s were being discounted at...at the time.

If you are looking for a solid 2nd tier scope at very reasonable prices (compared to the most expensive of the big 4) then I would suggest the Opticron HR ED 80 mm with the SDL v2 zoom eyepiece. It yields a 24-72x magnification range and typically sells for around $1600 US. This model is a step up from the ES 80 model in that......

.....each model contains a high definition 5 element apochromat objective lens with 2 individual ED elements. In addition to enhancing resolution, this second element delivers significant reductions in chromatic aberration settings compared to single element designs.

I have looked through the HR 66 on numerous occasions and have always been extremely impressed by the optical performance when it is paired with the SDL V2 zoom eyepiece.

 

[looksharp65]

Lars,

If you already have the ED 82 A, why do you need another scope of similar size?

Kimmo

Good point, but logistic considerations play an important role. I'm a bike commuter and I work until 6 pm. A really adequate scope placed at work might be helpful at occasions.

Kimmo, I think Lars Nikon 82ED is the straight model.

No, it is the angled one..

Lars..I mentioned Helios,the brand that sells the fieldmaster (saker is the american version)..they have some other models ,ED ,large objective, etc,that have been mentioned in the forum ,and reviewed even..same with Hawke,Vanguard etc...these brands have models that come to mind precisely because they have been mentioned by other members...but there is a bit of a risk with all these "premium budget" models, I am sure you would agree..for what is worth i owned a celestron Regal,a 65 ,that was wonderfully corrected and had very good contrast and color rendition..maybe was good luck,but what a great scope ...!
You can find old swaro At 80 HD , Kowa 823 or TSN3 for little money ..TSN 3 would be inexpensive and they are very nice..great optics,and excellent build quality all metal..also very compact for the size..

The Swaros, regardless of model and age, are ridiculously expensive on the used market here. Same with the used TSN3's, doubt I could find one below the €1000 mark even if nearly trashed. 823 maybe. All of them are rare, TSN1's can be found but I'd much rather go with an EDIIIA.

Thanks for your replies gentlemen!

//L

 

[looksharp65]

LS,

I am curious. What review are you referring to with the regard to the Mag82?

I don't remember writing anything to that effect and I don't remember SteveC writing that either.....

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2031647&postcount=5

I still have my Mag82. It has served me very well over the last four years. I don't regret choosing it at all for my 80 mm class spotting scope. I do typically use it with the 30x wide angle eyepiece but have used the 25-75X zoom on numerous occasions where 30x was insufficient. CA does manifest more readily at the higher magnifications but the overall loss in apparent sharpness as a result is minimal.

On a related note I did recently find that I could mount an Opticron HDF zoom to the Mag82 with some step rings and image quality is better than with the factory zoom. Wider field of view and more neutral color tone. A slight decrease in the zoom range is the only negative. I believe my calculations yielded a 66x max magnification.

As for why they are discontinued, from what I was told they weren't a big seller...not necessarily because of any performance/quality issues but rather because the initial cost (around $900-$950 from what I remember) was too close to what the Nikon ED82s were being discounted at...at the time.

If you are looking for a solid 2nd tier scope at very reasonable prices (compared to the most expensive of the big 4) then I would suggest the Opticron HR ED 80 mm with the SDL v2 zoom eyepiece. It yields a 24-72x magnification range and typically sells for around $1600 US. This model is a step up from the ES 80 model in that......



I have looked through the HR 66 on numerous occasions and have always been extremely impressed by the optical performance when it is paired with the SDL V2 zoom eyepiece.

Thanks for the suggestions, Frank :t:
This is the review of the Theron twin Avian ED82: http://www.avianoptics.co.uk/reviews/avian-ed82-birdwatching-review.pdf which mentions the fall-off beyond 40x. Otherwise they seem very impressed. I'd much rather go with a super sharp 60 or 65 mm scope if the bigger scope still isn't sharper beyond 40x.

Anyway, this is the last and final optics purchase project for me as far as I can see (sure, I hear you all ROFLYAO ) and I'm definitely not needing this, so it is possible it won't happen at all. Maybe I'll wait a few years and then go with a Swaro.

//L

 

[dwatsonbirder]

Hi Lars, hope you're well (and still enjoying my old ED50 ) I'm unsure what the situation is like in Sweden but there have been some excellent deals on televids on e#ay (and indeed on this forum) with several selling for well under £500, I picked up a good example for an excellent price a month ago. These are still exceptional scopes and with either the 32x or 20-60x they rival the new generation of top spec kit. It could be worth contacting some of the UK shops over here to see if they would ship internationally, though I'm not sure what the import taxes would be. Hope this helps, good birding!

 

[looksharp65]

Thanks Daniel!
The ED50 sure is enjoyable as is the eyepiece, although it's even better with a larger scope.
Thanks for your suggestione re the Leica scopes, I'll look around for them. Anyway, sports optics are overpriced here, and our currency doesn't promote any debaucheries at the moment. I'm blessed to have acquired my collection of optics while times were different.

//L

 

[kabsetz]

Lars,

I reviewed the Theron/Avian, albeit under a different name, some years back. The sample I had stayed respectably sharp all the way to 75x, although contrast suffered and CA increased more than in a Nikon ED 82. It is very much a Nikon ED 82 A clone, and not a bad one by any means, although you'd need to test the sample you were buying. The main differences to a real Nikon are less refined MC coatings and more CA due, probably, to inferior glass types in the objective. The most important strong point of this Chinese scope is that it has also copied the Nikon oversized Schmidt prism, meaning that there is total reflection on all the prism surfaces and the roof edge is kept outside the image forming light path. Thus, there are no image flaws coming from the prism edge, which for other designs is always a potential source of trouble. As I recall, the Nikon eyepieces would thread on the Chinese scope, but not vice versa. There was just that much difference in the way the threads were machined although they were probably the same in principle.

Of the used scopes you mention, I consider the Kowa 823 superb if you find a good sample, but the TSN 3 is quite far behind your ED 82. I certainly would not pay more than 3-400 € for a TSN 3, and even then it would have to be in excellent condition. The 823 armoring wears so poorly and looks so ugly when old that you should be able to get one for a pretty low price, and the optics are truly excellent in a good sample.

Kimmo

 

[looksharp65]

Thanks Kimmo for sharing your knowledge! I recall buying a custom made eyepiece adapter for Fieldscope eyepieces to Kowa scopes, maybe the 82 series has that thread size?
I guess there's better chances to find an 823 than a new or used Avian cherry sample. And if an EDIIA or EDIIIA appears, I might go for it despite the somewhat small aperture.

So far, I've never had bad luck buying used optics unseen, but realise I must be cautious with old, cheapish scopes. Anyway, the bargain hunting is just as exciting as searching for a lifer, and there's plenty with time as I'm in no hurry.

//L

EDIT: The 82 series seems to have a bayonet mount for the eyepieces.

 

[OPTIC_NUT]

Would Astro EDs help fill in the gap?

Willam Optics is an extremely popular make in the astro/terrestrial market now.
You would have to add diagonal and EP/s, but these are excellent instruments.
Or other makes...above and below that range.
If I had the money, I'd go that route, but I spend a lot of time on soaring birds.


That market has considerably more range and variety, if you know exactly
what you want to do with with your scope. I was looking at raptors gathering
from the top of Pack Monadnock and there were a bevy of spotters at the
Audubon site, lots of super gear.
http://www.nhaudubon.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/2010-Pack-Observatory-Report.pdf
I checked a few out. Sometimes the
zoom's field of view seemed small: there was a big confluence of Turkey Vultures
a mile away. Other times there just wasn't enough power. Before 4 PM, I was tracking
raptors 5-10 miles away with a 70/700 scope, 70x, and most birds were a mile
or more away. It hazed up after 4, at that height. The air cells are
pretty stable on a tall enough hill, though. A carbon-fiber ED
with ~100x would do better, probably. You could do 15x and 150x, with discrete EPs.
Even 2300ft altitude offers a view you can get more power and distance out of.

Just injecting a little outside-the-box speculation. Spotters have their limitations.
I'm getting ready for the massive Red-Tail Hawk gathering just a few miles away.
More limited power due to the air, but I think the 70/600 Meade with a nice 25mm and 15mm EPs will do fine.
A shorter ED scope someday, perhaps. But I would want bigger low-power fields and more night power than
most spotters can do.

 

[mooreorless]

ON , I have both a 100ED and 80ED and I don't think any of these spotters would come close to these 2, but I think Lars needs something more portable. I have had these scopes at very high magnification W/O seeing any CA at all.

 

[Vespobuteo]

not sure how your usage would look like?
would it be a stationary set-up? looking through your office window when having a coffee break?
or a scope to grab when Birdalarm is beeping?

an EDIII(A) would be nice and handy,
with the 30x eye piece (you already own?) it covers most usage,
but perhaps not low light use,

would cost 600-700 Euro on eBay,

ED78 can be found pretty cheap also,

Any new budget to midrange scope I think would give less bang for the buck,

but perhaps pentax, meopta or optolyth scopes could be of interest,

 

[mayoayo]

I dont know if i agree with kimmo regarding how far the TSN 3 is from the Nikon ED82..I would be surprised if the TSN 3,that i actually have never seen,is very different from the two samples od the tsn4 i have owned..Those two TSN4 were,or are,amazingly sharp scopes and test photos i took with them were quite impressive...the TSN3 model group is one of these models that was improved during its production years,some late models are sealed agains dust/moisture,perhaps coatings were also upgraded,i dont know.These late production units have different lettering/nomenclature.They are very well made ,their paint finish is ultra hard and for price,i have never seen one for sale with a price tag so close to the one K euro,..250 to 400 depending on conditin is more like it..i think 300 is the right aim,and that is a bargain for a fluorite lens ..the 823 is much more delicate,not only the rubbery finish,but the original policarbonate chassis that is a bit too light for its proportions/size..i think is about 1300 g without eyepiece and feels fragile,..but the optics are very good and quality is consistent..i now own my second 823 ,third in the series counting an 824 I had for a while..All of them pretty much perfect to my eyes,but contrast suffers a bit with certain lights, your ED 82 might control glare better..
Hey Lars....I made some of the custom nikon/ kowa adapter rings,,but dont remember having sold any to You..where did you buy one?...I adapted the Baader zoom to my scope and works really good,i also adapted the BST explorer to kowa and i am working on a swaro/kowa 82 bayonet using a zen ray spare bayonet..If you buy an 823 i might trade you the adapter for a pair of progressive lenses ,so can use the swaro 25-50x ...(smiley)

 

[OPTIC_NUT]

ON , I have both a 100ED and 80ED and I don't think any of these spotters would come close to these 2, but I think Lars needs something more portable. I have had these scopes at very high magnification W/O seeing any CA at all.

I see the point. Still, if someone is pondering an 80mm spotter, those
things get pretty hefty. The precision focuser and 2" tail do add weight
to the astro EDs.