Razor HD twice as good as Viper HD? (1 Viewer)

[Binoseeker]

I looked at the prices here in sweden and the price for a Razor HD 8x42 was nearly twice the price for the Viper HD 8x42, so is the price difference worth it?

One way to think is...would you rather buy 2 Vipers instead of one razor? :smoke:

Cheers

Anders

 

[ceasar]

The only binocular I ever bought 2 of is the Nikon 8 x 30 EII. I wanted a backup in case I lost the one I had.

Bob

 

[eitanaltman]

You never get twice the performance for twice the price. That's the principle of dominating returns. The question is how much you are willing to spend for those increasingly smaller incremental gains in performance.

 

[Torview]

You need to put them side by side and let your eyes decide, you`ll soon know if the extra "wonga" is worth the outlay.

 

[Binoseeker]

I haven´t had the opportunity to check them out at all yet.

I was just interested to hear from others who might have made a comparison if the difference is worth it and the argument to back that up.

And of course it is your own eyes, fit & feel etc that makes the input for the final decision.

I thought it was an interesting example to choose since the price difference was 2x and the Viper HD, at least 8x32, has got some good reviews.


Thanks,

Anders

 

[typo]

Anders,

While I slightly preferred the ergonomics, fit and feel of the Razor HD compared to the Viper HD, in my opinion that would be no reason to pay twice the price. The Viper HD is a very capable binocular and as far as I can judge, has sufficient optical performance to satisfy the needs of a large proportion of users. Any difference in the view quality would at best be marginal as it would be in comparing it to an alpha. However if you are confident your eyesight is somewhat better than average then the improvement in resolution performance and contrast of the Razor may well be quite significant to your eyes and the price difference justifiable.

Of course there is sample variation at every point in the price ladder and you can get lucky and find a particularly good example at much lower price point. I got lucky twice. :t:

 

[Binoseeker]

Typo,

Do you know if both types have field flatteners ?
Well, that sounds interesting.....got lucky twice, please tell more ;-)

Thanks,
Anders

 

[typo]

Anders,

I did not see any of the view distortion I associate with the Swaro ELSV or the Hawke Frontier ED that are considered to have 'field flatteners'. I don't know anything about the optical configuration in the Vortex pairs, however I'd say the field curvature was low on both models. I'd expect for young eyes in bright conditions that the views would appear close to flat. Certainly very wide sweetspots.

The resolution of my 80 Euro Chinese porros is extraordinary, and my Opticon Classic 7x36 is very good indeed.

David

 

[Steve C]

I do not think the Razor is absolutely worth twice the price either. One thing, at least in the full size 42 mm models, is that the Razor has a bigger fov, maybe not particularly large from an absolute standpoint, but there is enough difference that the presence in the view may make the extra money worthwhile.

I think the best Vipers are to be found in the 32 mm size and an 8x32 would be a very good choice.

I'm pretty sure the Viper has no field flatteners, and at the moment I don't know about the Razor. The original Razor HD surely did not, but I don't know right now if they new one does or not.

 

[Binoseeker]

Steve, David,

I wonder how the total cost of a bino´s qualities are distributed in general, in % ?
Mechanical quality 50% ?
Optical quality 50% ?
Any ideas about that?


I tried to make a list of bins with field flatteners but didn´t get very far...please add to or correct the list ?

Zen Ray Prime HD
Leupold BX-4 McKinley
Swarowski EL Swarovision
Hawke Frontier ED
Nikon EDG
Nikon SE
Fuji 6x30 FMTR-SX
Nikon Prostar
Canon 10 x 42 L IS WP, 18 x 50 IS All Weather
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP
WP Series 8 X 32 http://www.captainsnautical.com/10115/47615/Binoculars/WP-Series-8-X-32-Binocular.html
8x42MM Passport ED http://www.burgessoptical.com/passport-series.html

EDIT: I have moved this list to a new thread.

Anders

 

[Steve C]

According to Vortex the price difference is due to better glass, coating, and more expensive QC. But the Viper is still pretty sound and bright.

 

[idaho john]

Viper versus Razor...

When I was shopping for an new 8 power, I spent time comparing the Conquest HD, the Viper HD and the Razor HD.

Briefly

- the Conquest has a very nice clear view through the center (all joking aside as in "what part of the glass are you looking through?"), nice and sharp but there was a distinct diminishing in quality (clarity) towards the edge. And eye placement for me was difficult. Adjusting the eyepieces and IPD did not help, for me anyway.

- the Viper HD had very nice, clear sweet spot, comparable to but slightly wider than the Conquest, but also begin to suffer towards the edge. An example would be that the lenses darkened towards the edge of the field of view. Eye placement was not as difficult however.

- the Razor was clear(er) than the Viper HD. The quality of the view was as good as the Conquest HD and maintained a better quality of view towards the edge of the field. By that I mean, the lens did not darken as on the Viper and unlike the Conquest, there was not a marked deterioration away from the sweet spot. Eye placement is also finicky, too difficult for me at least. And the focus wheel is - for the lack of a better way to say it - too fast.

So I purchased the Viper HD. It was the combination of factors that helped me make my decision. 1) a nice sweet spot and less fall off in quality towards the edge than the Conquest HD, 2) the objective lens covers work, unlike the Conquest HD presentation, and 3) I can get functional eye placement for me - with my prescription lens, the deciding factor when trying to choose which one to purchase.

For me, the Razor HD is not worth twice the price of the Viper HD.

I wanted to like the Conquest HD and tried many times to get it adjusted to my eyes...no joy. The Razor HD never fit despite its minutely better quality view.

Finally, I found the 10 power Conquest HD actually better than the 8 power version, the eye placement was more forgiving and I enjoyed using it as a result. The Razor HD in 10 power was not significantly better than the 8 power version...as noted, eye placement and focus wheel killed what is otherwise a nice design.

This is limited by my lack of experience with optics. And as I get older, I begin to question whether my eyes are capable of consistently performing well enough to take advantage of the "benefits" of the improvements in question.

So based on my experience, I would not feel cheated with the Viper HD. And would pocket the difference and go to Old Blighty to see the Red Kites and Hobby Falcons.:t:

 

[Binoseeker]

Steve, John,

Thanks for your interesting replies!

Anders

 

[winwinbino]

Hi Anders,

IMHO it's not an appropriate question in first place. Surely Razor is better than Viper but twice good, no way.
Same thing could be applied to "is-elsv-twice-as-good-as-Razor" question.
There are different reasons/factors for people considering binoculars.
If best V.F.M is the only condition, you should buy the Diamonback instead of Viper.

 

[Binoseeker]

Winwinbino,

Ok, i will look into the diamondback when i get a chance.
There is no bino-shop close by selling Vortex, I would like to check out a lot of their bins at the same time, then i have to go to a town in the south of sweden.

Anders

 

[eitanaltman]

I don't think he was literally suggesting that you should get the Diamondback. Rather, the point is that you NEVER get double the performance for double the price in binoculars once you get past a minimum point of quality. That's the principle of diminishing returns.

So if all you care about is the most "value for the money" then the cheapest decent model will be the winner. In the Vortex lineup, that's the Diamondback series.

Now, should you actually buy that cheapest model or spend more for incremental gains? That's a personal decision, based upon your budget constraints and how picky you are about optics. Some people will happily spend $2,000 on a Swarovski or Zeiss or Leica even though by any objective standard they are only a small fraction better optically than something that costs half the price, like the Vortex Razor HD or Minox HG.

So again I don't think he was specifically recommending that you buy the Diamondback, but rather just making a general point about the principle of diminishing returns in optics. Everybody has to find their own "sweet spot" for value vs. budget.

Personally, I think (and I would wager most would agree) that the Viper is the "sweet spot" in the Vortex lineup. It's enough improved over the Diamondback, without being considerably more expensive, that it represents a very nice value.

 

[Binoseeker]

Eithan, thanks for your response.

Yes, the principle of diminishing returns is usually not linear, cost vs performance, but i was interested to hear BF members view about it concerning the Viper HD and Razor HD since the price was double for the Razor HD, at least here in Sweden, but i guess the difference is not linear here also.

I am looking for a 8x32-ish waterproof roof bino, not too expensive, as a backup for my Prime 8x42 ( is sent back to ZR for replacement), a bin i can leave in the trunk of my car. I like the flat field view, but for a cheaper backup, I probably have to make an exception for that kind of view :smoke: . Larger sweet spot with little or no CA would be nice, a piece of cake to get, no ;-) ?

Anders

 

[winwinbino]

eitanaltman,
Thanks for explain further.

Binoseeker,
I own almost all Vortex series. From Diamondback to Razor HD, even the discontinued Stokes DLS & Broadwing. To me, Vortex's binoculars are one of the best value for money on the market.

If 8x32 format is your first choice, I don't think Viper HD will disappoint you .

All the best.

 

[Binoseeker]

Winwinbino, thanks for your response.

Anders

 

[eitanaltman]

Yes, the 8x32 Viper HD is the best Viper model in my opinion. Wide FOV, almost no CA, large sweet spot, very bright and VERY sharp while being compact and rugged.